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> God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, From Glen's mailbag
Glen
post Jul 28 2006, 08:40 AM
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Dear believers in the only true living God, I am currently struggling within my mind the concept that there is only one God but there are three individuals (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the one and the same, then how can He (God) as Jesus Christ not know what day or hour he will return? Or did someone erroneously wrote that and could it have been that he said it was not for man to know the time or day of his return? Keep in mind that God is omniscient and knows all things. If God is not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the one and the same, then there are three individual beings who are each a god. I am not attempting to cause disbelief or discredit the truth but sincerely desiring to know the truth about God. I believe in God and desire to know Him as He truly exists. I do not want to believe ignorantly but with true knowledge, so that I may be bold and confident in my beliefs and be convincing to others in sharing the truth. I am seeking you for help to gain a firm understanding. If you will respond, I may have more questions in response to your replies until I am free within my mind from disruptive thoughts about the true living God. I will be most grateful if you will patiently and lovingly help me.Sincerely from,Albert

Hi Albert! I'm not sure how much time I have to commit to this particular issue, but I'll give you what I can. First of all, I have no idea why God chooses to present Himself as multiple persons. Some have suggested man was created in God's image in this respect, having body, mind and spirit. Others have suggested we are in His image in our need for relationship because He represents an eternal perfect relationship. Nobody but God knows why He is more than one person! And nobody but God knows how He does it or what the full meaning of it is. This is one of the reasons the debate has gone on so long and why I'm sure I won't be able to give you a satisfactory answer.

Concerning knowledge of the day and hour, while some texts in the original language include "nor the Son" and some don't, the most reliable texts suggest Jesus, in fact, didn't know. Your question is based on the premise that Scripture is the perfect Word of God and can't contradict itself. This is the correct premise. If God is one, then, how can God-the Son not know what God knows? Actually, the question denies things the Scripture explains and ignores other things that could explain it further, for instance:
Though Father, Son and Spirit are One, they are not the same. Each has a unique mission as described by the Scripture. For God's purposes, He apparently decided each of His Persons would have different characteristics perfect for their different missions. For the purpose of God-the Son's mission on Earth, He had to not know some things...and be unable to do some things. He wasn't able to heal sometimes, for instance. He had to obey His parents. He needed rest and food. He wasn't able to have His prayer answered when He asked to not have to die on the cross. In fact, why would He, being God, have to pray? The best answer I can find in Scripture is, He voluntarily gave up His God-ness in order to come to Earth and save us, His creation (See Philippians 2:5-11). If we go back to our premise, we aren't seeking to dwell on seeming contradictions or find reasons to doubt, but to understand ways they don't have to be contradictions and reasons for faith. For me, the above paragraph is a satisfactory explanation of the question. This brings us face to face with the issue of faith. Faith in God forces us to accept things we don't understand.

If God is small enough for us to understand, He isn't big enough to help us.
God is not bound by our logic or reason. What gives us such difficulty with God is, we try to fit Him in our tiny minds. Even with His Word, we humans understand less about God than a dust mite understands about us. Here's a logic test for you: If God is all powerful, can He make a rock He is unable to lift? Answer: God is so powerful He is beyond our logic and linguistic maneuvers. This is the realm of faith. I challenge you to continue to live in the realm of faith until you're comfortable not knowing some things. I admire your stated desire to seek and live in the truth. As someone who has offered Christ full time for over 15 years, let me suggest one more thing. If someone you're talking to is fixated on a seeming contradiction in Scripture, unlike you, they aren't seeking the truth. I have yet to find a genuine contradiction in Scripture. For more on seeming contradictions in the four Gospels, visit http://www.web-church.com/life_and_history...esus_christ.htm.


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Love & Hugs,
Glen


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cottrel2
post Jun 30 2007, 12:43 PM
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Glen,
I'm not going to be very scholarly on the subject but more practical. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is not a universally accepted doctrine. The Jews have always believed there is one God (and is a persistent reason to deny that Jesus was messiah, much less God's son). The Muslin have also adopted this same stance (but as a much different diety). Even within christian circles there are groups such as in the Apostolic faith who deny the trinity doctrine. I also have questioned the trinity doctrine, not so much as a matter of doctrine but as of practicality. If we have early parents and are born to them at a certain date then would not the analogy hold that Jesus was born at a certain date (of a virgin espoused to a man, who conceived of divine interaction and gave birth to the new Adam)? What of his place before birth? Obviously, he came from the bosom of the father, being one with(in) him.

In like manner before our birth we are part of our parents. Our "seed" is from our father and our mother is the vessel chosen to hold this seed (and nourish it until birth). Now I would not now call me my father nor my father call me him. Likewise with my mother. Jesus was not conceived like any ordinary child but was born of the Spirit. This was his Father (some say Mother). In Genesis, we learn that God made man of the dust of the earth. Likewise God created Jesus (the man) the last Adam. This is not to say that Jesus had his beginning at Nazareth for his seed is eternal (but sown perishable, see Romans 15). Jesus was made flesh and bone like us so that he could be tempted but without sin and that we can call out to him in our times of temptation. I will reference this from Ephesians 2:

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Did you see this? God created in himself one new man. He birthed (or conceived) Christ to break down the wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile. The point is he creates. Was Jesus the man there at the beginning. I doubt it. I don't think this is in the bible anywhere. Is Jesus separate from God the Father and the Spirit. I hope so. He is at the right hand of the majesty on high making intercession for the saints. Why would Jesus rise from the dead and return to heaven if He were just God the Father. Why would we now need a Saviour? God the Father would be sufficient. Jesus would then just be a historical figure and a point of belief. No! Jesus himself will return soon with the trumpet of God and set up his kingdom.

I think that is enough now for controversy or debate.
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Glen
post Jul 2 2007, 06:17 AM
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It's funny, the very Law that the Jewish consider the foundation of their faith describes God in plural...Elohim...in many places and one in others. This, it seems to me, would argue for God to be more than one at the same time as being one...just one of those things we won't understand until we're with Him in Heaven. Just like we can't wrap our minds around the fact that God is everywhere and every-when at the same time. Hey, maybe that's why we consider him God...because He's beyond our comprehension. The ones I get suspicious about are the humans who think they know.

That's why I tell everyone...get into God's Word and discover for yourself, with the help of the Holy Spirit. If you're getting your knowledge of God second-hand from a doctrinal statement or a theological seminary, you're getting more of man than God. Men always try to fit Him into this little box of our own understanding. The real God does not fit into our puny understanding, so, if you rely on the understanding of another human, no matter how many PHD's he has, you're limiting God. I Jn 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

One more thing! Islam has nothing to teach us about God. Worship of Allah is moon worship and is specifically prohibited in the Law, which predates the Koran by at least 1,500 years and has never needed revision.


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Love & Hugs,
Glen


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cottrel2
post Jul 8 2007, 05:04 AM
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One or three persons, or something in-between. Good discussion questions. However, I must admit not necessarily the best use of our time. (btw, my doctrines are really my doctrines)

You are definitely correct regarding Islam. Without enraging some of that faith, I will also point out that prophet Mohammad originally sought out Christianity but rejected it due to some heretical and erroneous practices of the church of his day. I believe that if prophet Mohammad lived in the days of the early, early church he would have been a Christian - quite possibly a noteworthy Christian. We all have our flaws, and he was no exception. Our bible teaches us that there was only ONE person who ever lived a sinless life.

I do appreciate your online ministry and see that it is helpful to many people.
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Glen
post Jul 8 2007, 09:30 AM
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Thank you! Just to muddy the water further and, hopefully, tweak some people into opening their Bibles: Who said three was the limit? God, being all powerful, could be as many persons as He wanted, I suppose. Revelation speaks of the seven spirits of God (or seven-fold spirit). The more we study the more we know we don't know and the more intriguing and interesting God is. I'll pop out more questions in the future...don't want to saturate people.


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Love & Hugs,
Glen


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GodsSpirit
post Jul 23 2008, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE (Glen @ Jul 8 2007, 10:30 AM) *
Thank you! Just to muddy the water further and, hopefully, tweak some people into opening their Bibles: Who said three was the limit? God, being all powerful, could be as many persons as He wanted, I suppose. Revelation speaks of the seven spirits of God (or seven-fold spirit). The more we study the more we know we don't know and the more intriguing and interesting God is. I'll pop out more questions in the future...don't want to saturate people.



How do these scriptures fit in with God being a different person than the Holy Spirit?

John 4
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Ephesians 4
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 6
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you* are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."





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