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> Gospel Truth, essential truth
beloved57
post Apr 5 2007, 01:02 PM
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Why is it that those professing christianity do not believe in or witness about particular atonement or unconditional election, both I believe are essential gospel truthes...
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Glen
post Apr 6 2007, 09:00 AM
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I'm sorry, but, I'm not sure I understand the terms you're using. Please share with us your definition of the terms and the Bible references for your position. I'm not asking you to quote someone else, copy their article or refer to their website...this forum is for us all to find answers in the Bible, personally. So, please help us understand by giving us your explanation with references gained from your study of God's Word. After I know what you're saying, I may be able to respond.


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Glen


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semi
post Jul 28 2007, 04:17 PM
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beloved57 -

Particular Atonement?
Unconditional Election?

Never herd such terms before. Explain what you mean by these terms, please.

Shalom.
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Guest_Owen_*
post Jul 28 2007, 09:49 PM
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Unconditional election would mean that either you are in the "elect" or not, this being unconditional in that if God has elected you, that is it you are elect, nothing anyone else can do or say about it to change this. It is unconditional because if you are elect, you are elect.

Personally, I feel that God knows who will respond and who won't, possibly being illustrated when He says that "many are called, but few are chosen". By elect, maybe it is that He has given everybody a choice, but you are elect in that he has already selected you before the foundations of the world to respond. I'm not really that sure, only that it wouldn't make sense if you were elect, and the guy next to you never had a hope, I believe there is an element of God knowing who will respond, i.e. who He has chosen.

Not too sure about this particular atonement business, not a philosophy I am familiar with.
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Guest_Owen_*
post Jul 30 2007, 12:32 AM
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Sorry to post twice, but I have been doing some reading, someone being 'elect' is interesting, very interesting concept. Probably God would look at it differently than we would, in that He knows the future, so since if you are called, He already knows, therefore you are 'elect' because He has already predestined it for you.

However, since you are alive here and now, this unconditional election that you refer to as being a foundational principle of Christianity probably isn't the best way to think about it, since you have a choice, everybody has a choice to make. I did a lot of research on the views on "many are called, but few are chosen" in relation to the context in which it was used, and for the most part it seems that the Gentiles are now called, because the Jews didn't respond, but with the person who was thrown out of the feast due to his lacking garments into the darkness (wailing and gnashing of teeth, that's really terrible, I would do anything to avoid that, anything...so very serious), but basically the principle is if you are called, respond, and respond whole-heartedly, do not hold anything back at all, it's quite possible (from the way I see it from what I have read and researched), that you are not completely saved until you have "run the course that is set before you, kept the faith". This means enduring unto the end, and maybe there is an element of who the Son of man will choose out of those who have been called, in that do your very very all that you can to not be the one without the wedding garment on, hypothesised to mean that the Church is the bride of Christ, and you need Him as your wedding garment, His blood for the remission of sins.

But this is for us, God already knows everything, before the foundation of the world, He knows what will happen, but only thing this means for us is that since you are obviously called, "run the race that is set before you", "endure until the end". No small thing to be left out, each and every person has to make sure for themselves that they aren't holding onto things or putting anything second, it seems that serious to me.

Election sometimes can mean choosing, so I think it comes down to how your respond to this calling that matters. God already knows, so this makes it interesting.

I agree with the election bit, since I have gone off track before, and very strange how it has all worked out for me, there has been a hand in my life, sometimes hard to acknowledge, but even being here right now and being on a forum like this talking about giving up everything, not something I would have pictured myself doing, so definitely I am one of the "many being called", but this does not guarantee me a way to Heaven, only my relationship with Jesus Christ can do that, so that's what I will be working on, I can tell you... hopefully I will be one of the ones that will "escape all the things that will come to pass". Scary to me to think that it is not guaranteed, but quite truly I believe this to be the case since the Apostle Paul said that we must "sort out our salvation with fear and trembling", and we must have "kept the faith", things like that. This assurance of salvation, I don't like this being preached, I feel it is a dangerous principle along with this unconditional election that is being talked about now with Christianity, many are called being the key, what you do with it is up to you. I wouldn't rest on laurels at all, because even only right at the end of Paul's life did he know that he was saved, and a crown of righteousness was awaiting him. What a relief that must have been for him!

Since it is written as elect "the very elect", I'd say God knows, but we don't. Don't take it for granted, "sort it out with fear and trembling". I will be, already this has struck me very deeply just researching this.

Owen
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Glen
post Jul 30 2007, 08:10 AM
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Hi Owen! Seems like you've done a lot of study on the subject. It also seems you've done a good job of reconciling free will with election. Rather than research just the "predestination" issue and come to a conclusion, may I recommend you reconcile your findings here with a couple more scriptures? How does it square with "...whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." "God isn't willing that any should perish..." "He who has love, has life." "all things are permissible, but not all are profitable."? What do you feel the "sorting out" of our salvation means in light of these Scriptures? I feel you have very good insight, but I'm not sure why you feel someone couldn't feel assured in their salvation without taking it for granted.


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Glen


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Guest_Owen_*
post Jul 30 2007, 10:07 PM
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Hi Glen,

It does get a little confusing, since as you have quoted "Whoever believes in Him will not perish", but then in other parts of the Scripture it says "Whoever believes and is batized shall be saved", so it would seem on the surface that belief is not enough.

Perhaps with belief comes a change in heart, and perhaps also consistent with other Scripture is that "no man can snatch them out of my hand", this means that once you believe, God will make the rest happen. This seems consistent also with what Paul said "the work that has been started with you will be finished" or something along those lines. I'd say if you believe, things will happen in your life that will signify that He has not let you go, and the work will be finished in you. This is how I have experienced it anyway. once you have that belief, it is with you for life.

I suppose I am just saying in the light of the rest of the Scriptures not to take it for granted, not just rest on your belief and then I am saved no matter what I do...I'd say you have to run the race till the end, keep the faith. Hence you are being called, don't let Him down! Well, try your best, you can't do anymore than that, but I guess I'm saying also be careful, you don't want to be one of the ones left outside!

Owen
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Glen
post Jul 31 2007, 03:40 AM
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Owen, I believe you've got it, when you say, "Perhaps with belief comes a change in heart...this means that once you believe, God will make the rest happen. This seems consistent also with what Paul said "the work that has been started with you will be finished" or something along those lines. I'd say if you believe...and the work will be finished in you. This is how I have experienced it anyway. once you have that belief, it is with you for life."

After 20 years of Biblical study and 15 as a minister, this is where I come down...'Believe in Jesus and God will lead you to everything else you need to do...and enable you to do it. I can't imagine a situation where someone genuinely believes in Christ but nothing else changes about their lives. So, I have faith in God to do His part if I can just get them to believe in Him.

I don't think it's possible for us to lose our salvation, as if by accident, but the Bible is clear that we can give it up on purpose. The fact is, Christians sin...all of us...we just don't pursue a life of sin. Hopefully, we sin less and less as He works in us, but sinning, in itself, doesn't cancel our salvation. So, I think I draw the same balance you do between Beloved's "unconditional election" and what's been known as the Arminian position where any sin condemns us. "If we (Christians) confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


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Love & Hugs,
Glen


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Guest_Owen_*
post Aug 1 2007, 12:07 AM
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Yeah, I agree with you about the forgiveness of sin, that is the same way I feel about it also. Thankyou for your input that you have learnt over all these years that I have not had yet.

However, I guess I get a little freaked out when Heb. 10:26 says "For if you continue to sin wilfully after receiving the knowlege of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin."

That's why I'm saying be careful...it's not a risk worth taking to rest too much on your "unconditional election" that you think you have, because it may lead you to be careless and think that all sin is just forgiven no matter what...

Also, I do disagree with you, and think that it is definitely possible to lose your salvation as that verse demonstrates by saying "...there remains no more sacrifice for sin". Hence, "be of a sober spirit, the devil is seeking whom he may devour". Just be thankful that you have received this knowledge of the truth, I am, I wouldn't risk it for anything in the whole world...Not saying that to you Glen!, but just as a reminder to myself and any others who will read this post, it's not an issue to play around with.

This could be a fitting verse to finish up with: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12.

A Christian must remain of a sober spirit, not just rest on their "unconditional election". There's a lot at stake to be blaze about it.

Thanks Glen,

Owen
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Glen
post Aug 1 2007, 03:54 AM
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Hey! Don't pin unconditional election on me! I was just talking about it like you. The fact that I said you can lose your salvation means I don't believe in unconditional election.


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Glen


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