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> Ii Samuel, discussion about King David
Guest_manafourme_*
post May 12 2007, 11:37 AM
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Hi serious Bible students (if that's what you are! )
If you have read ( with understanding ) the life of King David; I would be interested in your thoughts.
In particular, II Samuel. 21
Starting with the famine in those days and King David inquiring to see why there was a famine.
Saul had slew Gibeonites ( Lot's descendents ) and apparently they were praying for retribution.
They asked to hang 10 of Saul's descendents.
Now, my understanding is that these were innocent men just minding their own business that happened to be related to Saul.
Without mentioning those times were different, how could this be justice.
Michal, Saul's daughter loved David, but when he left ( with her help ) he married two(+?) women, and Saul gave her to another.
The husband really loved Michal, but David took her away from him.
She was upset when he danced before the Lord but if one studies the story, you'll see where it is quite possible that Michal was angry for being taken away from a loving husband and 5 sons!
Perhaps it was'nt so much of her being disrepectful of God but rather she was thinking that here's David dancing in front of the Lord when he married other women yet dragged me away from a loving husband and sons.
Yet , it seems ( I could be wrong ) that she is treated like the evil woman when she may not have been at all.
All of her sons were butchered as well as the two sons of a concubine. Her story is so sad; I cried.
So what's with all these wives and concubines; is'nt this fornication or adultry?
And how is it not?
Don't pleazzzzzzzzzzzze tell me times are different; this was BC ; we still have the same old 10 commandments!!
Would love some thoughtful intelligent thought on this!
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Glen
post May 13 2007, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE(manafourme @ May 12 2007, 12:37 PM) *
Hi serious Bible students (if that's what you are! )
If you have read ( with understanding ) the life of King David; I would be interested in your thoughts.
In particular, II Samuel. 21
Starting with the famine in those days and King David inquiring to see why there was a famine.
Saul had slew Gibeonites ( Lot's descendents ) and apparently they were praying for retribution.
They asked to hang 10 of Saul's descendents.
Now, my understanding is that these were innocent men just minding their own business that happened to be related to Saul.
Without mentioning those times were different, how could this be justice.
Michal, Saul's daughter loved David, but when he left ( with her help ) he married two(+?) women, and Saul gave her to another.
The husband really loved Michal, but David took her away from him.
She was upset when he danced before the Lord but if one studies the story, you'll see where it is quite possible that Michal was angry for being taken away from a loving husband and 5 sons!
Perhaps it was'nt so much of her being disrepectful of God but rather she was thinking that here's David dancing in front of the Lord when he married other women yet dragged me away from a loving husband and sons.
Yet , it seems ( I could be wrong ) that she is treated like the evil woman when she may not have been at all.
All of her sons were butchered as well as the two sons of a concubine. Her story is so sad; I cried.
So what's with all these wives and concubines; is'nt this fornication or adultry?
And how is it not?
Don't pleazzzzzzzzzzzze tell me times are different; this was BC ; we still have the same old 10 commandments!!
Would love some thoughtful intelligent thought on this!


Let me start by telling you, I feel these are some of the better questions I've heard, concerning the Bible. I can tell from your post, you've gotten a lot of hooey from religious people and don't want your time wasted with it, here. I admire that! I can also tell from your additional posts, you know the answer but may not have put it all together.

First, let's dispose of some of the hooey. Neither David nor Solomon had a special dispensation from God to have multiple wives or concubines. Since this is "Bible" questions and answers, I challenge anyone to give us the Scripture referance referring to this dispensation. God's definitin of marriage is between one man and one woman, though, as today, God's idea conflicted with the culture of David's time. By far, the biggest bunch of religius hooey alluded to in your post, is the idea that things changed somewhere between the Old Testament and the New...that things were "different" BC. I'm sorry people gave you such lame and misleading answers.

I'll try to avoid lame and misleading and get right to the meat of the matter. If you need Scripture references for any points I make, let me know, but I'm going to cover a lot of ground from memory and don't have the time to look up the reference on every point. Besides, from your posts, It appears you're familiar enough with the Bible to recognize the topics as they come up. Your questions come from an invalid premise, which I feel is based in some of the religious hooey you've been told in the past.

The premise is, God should live within our standards of fairness. I'm not accusing you of calling God unfair. I'm just saying we humans have no clue what fairness is, in an eternal sense. The word the Bible uses for God's fairness is "justice." As you've said, there has never been a human, except Christ, who could stand up to God's justice. As opposed to the religious statements we've both heard, I appreciate God's Word for showing us how human God's followers were. It gives me hope for myself. A name for God, "I Am" tells us that He lives in eternity (past, present, future) all at once. There is just no way we could possibly understand His frame of thought in our seventy years in this one place. It woud be like an ant trying to understand a human. The Bible says we see only in part...we can't even judge our own hearts...God is far beyond our very imaginations. What we know of God is what He wants us to know...all we need to know. Yes, faith is required...and a lot of it.

I don't understand how a loving God can harden Pharoah's heart and use that hardness to destroy Egypt. I don't know how He could tell Israel to utterly destroy every living remnant of the Canaanites. I don't even know how it's fair for the decision of one man, Adam, to bring sin, sickness and deah on us all (I have a supicion it has to do with giving us an alternative other than loving and following God, so our decision to do so would be genuine.) I can't tell you why God would allow His sevant to promise to offer his daughter as a sacrifice (Judges). We can come up with many stories from the Bible just like the one you're stuck on, that just don't make sense to us. What's all that stuff about God bargaining with the devil to kill Job's family and take all his possessions? There are days I feel like Job and days I feel like his wife...just curse God and die. I guess what an older age and about 18 years of Christian experience and in-depth Bible study have taught me is, I can trust God's wisdom in those things and not try to be all-knowing myself. It's not that I choose to be ignorant, just that i understand and accept the fact that there are some things I won't know until I'm with Him. Let me share with you a few things I do know, that relate to your questions.

Things have been the same since the beginning of time. Humans are the same as they were from the beginning. You can never expect fairness or unselfishnes in the affairs of humans. I appreceiate that the Bible accurately records that. Abraham was as human as you, with as many faults. The Bible teaches that we humans have the choice of folowing God or the devil. All the sin, sickness and death in the world are the result of our collective choices. That hasn't changed since Adam and Eve. Humans, of our own power, are unable to avoid sinning. Paul admitted as much in Romans 7-8, Peter said no one has ever been able to follow the Law, John said to Christians, "if you claim to be without sin, you're a liar." This religious idea that Christians or others of God's followers don't sin, is hooey! The difference is, we don't intend to sin and don't embrace it as a lifestyle. Jesus taught that God, through Moses, made an exception to the Law about adultery, "because of the hardness of our hearts." This brings me to the fact that God hasn't changed.

He wasn't a terrible, destroying God in the Old Testament and then became loving. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Faith calls us to accept that what God does is always motivated by love...even those things we don't understand. Faith is shown, not by God doing what we ask, but by us following God when He isn't doing what we ask or expect. The Bible teaches us that the Law was never about us earning a place with God. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. The Law was to instruct us of things we should be doing and of our utter dependence on God. The only way we get anywhere near following just the ten commandments is by faith in His power. Without faith, it's impossible to please God. God has been about love and our relationship with Him has been about faith since the beginning. It was lack of faith in God that caused Adam to disobey Him. The Bible teaches that Abel's gift was an expression of faith, for which God granted him righteousness. Abraham is the most direct example of faith being credited as righteousness. That didn't change when Jesus was crucified, and is still the standard, today. It's faith in Him that gives us righteousness, not following a set of rules. Of course, if we have that faith, we'll sincerely try to follow His ules. When (not if) we fail, in faith, we ask His forvieness, get up, dust ourselves off and start again.

David and every other Biblical example teaches us that we depend on God's love and power for our very relationship with Him. The one redeeming thing I see about David is, no matter how far astray he went...adultery...murder...he always came back to God. He gives me hope. We, just like the followers of old, in faith, seek God's help to battle sin and continue to follow Him. Just like them, no matter how much we fail, we have His love.

I know this got long, but I hope it answers the spirit, if not the specifics of your question. Please keep asking!


--------------------
Love & Hugs,
Glen


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