Why is it that those professing christianity do not believe in or witness about particular atonement or unconditional election, both I believe are essential gospel truthes...
I'm sorry, but, I'm not sure I understand the terms you're using. Please share with us your definition of the terms and the Bible references for your position. I'm not asking you to quote someone else, copy their article or refer to their website...this forum is for us all to find answers in the Bible, personally. So, please help us understand by giving us your explanation with references gained from your study of God's Word. After I know what you're saying, I may be able to respond.
beloved57 -
Particular Atonement?
Unconditional Election?
Never herd such terms before. Explain what you mean by these terms, please.
Shalom.
Unconditional election would mean that either you are in the "elect" or not, this being unconditional in that if God has elected you, that is it you are elect, nothing anyone else can do or say about it to change this. It is unconditional because if you are elect, you are elect.
Personally, I feel that God knows who will respond and who won't, possibly being illustrated when He says that "many are called, but few are chosen". By elect, maybe it is that He has given everybody a choice, but you are elect in that he has already selected you before the foundations of the world to respond. I'm not really that sure, only that it wouldn't make sense if you were elect, and the guy next to you never had a hope, I believe there is an element of God knowing who will respond, i.e. who He has chosen.
Not too sure about this particular atonement business, not a philosophy I am familiar with.
Sorry to post twice, but I have been doing some reading, someone being 'elect' is interesting, very interesting concept. Probably God would look at it differently than we would, in that He knows the future, so since if you are called, He already knows, therefore you are 'elect' because He has already predestined it for you.
However, since you are alive here and now, this unconditional election that you refer to as being a foundational principle of Christianity probably isn't the best way to think about it, since you have a choice, everybody has a choice to make. I did a lot of research on the views on "many are called, but few are chosen" in relation to the context in which it was used, and for the most part it seems that the Gentiles are now called, because the Jews didn't respond, but with the person who was thrown out of the feast due to his lacking garments into the darkness (wailing and gnashing of teeth, that's really terrible, I would do anything to avoid that, anything...so very serious), but basically the principle is if you are called, respond, and respond whole-heartedly, do not hold anything back at all, it's quite possible (from the way I see it from what I have read and researched), that you are not completely saved until you have "run the course that is set before you, kept the faith". This means enduring unto the end, and maybe there is an element of who the Son of man will choose out of those who have been called, in that do your very very all that you can to not be the one without the wedding garment on, hypothesised to mean that the Church is the bride of Christ, and you need Him as your wedding garment, His blood for the remission of sins.
But this is for us, God already knows everything, before the foundation of the world, He knows what will happen, but only thing this means for us is that since you are obviously called, "run the race that is set before you", "endure until the end". No small thing to be left out, each and every person has to make sure for themselves that they aren't holding onto things or putting anything second, it seems that serious to me.
Election sometimes can mean choosing, so I think it comes down to how your respond to this calling that matters. God already knows, so this makes it interesting.
I agree with the election bit, since I have gone off track before, and very strange how it has all worked out for me, there has been a hand in my life, sometimes hard to acknowledge, but even being here right now and being on a forum like this talking about giving up everything, not something I would have pictured myself doing, so definitely I am one of the "many being called", but this does not guarantee me a way to Heaven, only my relationship with Jesus Christ can do that, so that's what I will be working on, I can tell you... hopefully I will be one of the ones that will "escape all the things that will come to pass". Scary to me to think that it is not guaranteed, but quite truly I believe this to be the case since the Apostle Paul said that we must "sort out our salvation with fear and trembling", and we must have "kept the faith", things like that. This assurance of salvation, I don't like this being preached, I feel it is a dangerous principle along with this unconditional election that is being talked about now with Christianity, many are called being the key, what you do with it is up to you. I wouldn't rest on laurels at all, because even only right at the end of Paul's life did he know that he was saved, and a crown of righteousness was awaiting him. What a relief that must have been for him!
Since it is written as elect "the very elect", I'd say God knows, but we don't. Don't take it for granted, "sort it out with fear and trembling". I will be, already this has struck me very deeply just researching this.
Owen
Hi Owen! Seems like you've done a lot of study on the subject. It also seems you've done a good job of reconciling free will with election. Rather than research just the "predestination" issue and come to a conclusion, may I recommend you reconcile your findings here with a couple more scriptures? How does it square with "...whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." "God isn't willing that any should perish..." "He who has love, has life." "all things are permissible, but not all are profitable."? What do you feel the "sorting out" of our salvation means in light of these Scriptures? I feel you have very good insight, but I'm not sure why you feel someone couldn't feel assured in their salvation without taking it for granted.
Hi Glen,
It does get a little confusing, since as you have quoted "Whoever believes in Him will not perish", but then in other parts of the Scripture it says "Whoever believes and is batized shall be saved", so it would seem on the surface that belief is not enough.
Perhaps with belief comes a change in heart, and perhaps also consistent with other Scripture is that "no man can snatch them out of my hand", this means that once you believe, God will make the rest happen. This seems consistent also with what Paul said "the work that has been started with you will be finished" or something along those lines. I'd say if you believe, things will happen in your life that will signify that He has not let you go, and the work will be finished in you. This is how I have experienced it anyway. once you have that belief, it is with you for life.
I suppose I am just saying in the light of the rest of the Scriptures not to take it for granted, not just rest on your belief and then I am saved no matter what I do...I'd say you have to run the race till the end, keep the faith. Hence you are being called, don't let Him down! Well, try your best, you can't do anymore than that, but I guess I'm saying also be careful, you don't want to be one of the ones left outside!
Owen
Owen, I believe you've got it, when you say, "Perhaps with belief comes a change in heart...this means that once you believe, God will make the rest happen. This seems consistent also with what Paul said "the work that has been started with you will be finished" or something along those lines. I'd say if you believe...and the work will be finished in you. This is how I have experienced it anyway. once you have that belief, it is with you for life."
After 20 years of Biblical study and 15 as a minister, this is where I come down...'Believe in Jesus and God will lead you to everything else you need to do...and enable you to do it. I can't imagine a situation where someone genuinely believes in Christ but nothing else changes about their lives. So, I have faith in God to do His part if I can just get them to believe in Him.
I don't think it's possible for us to lose our salvation, as if by accident, but the Bible is clear that we can give it up on purpose. The fact is, Christians sin...all of us...we just don't pursue a life of sin. Hopefully, we sin less and less as He works in us, but sinning, in itself, doesn't cancel our salvation. So, I think I draw the same balance you do between Beloved's "unconditional election" and what's been known as the Arminian position where any sin condemns us. "If we (Christians) confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Yeah, I agree with you about the forgiveness of sin, that is the same way I feel about it also. Thankyou for your input that you have learnt over all these years that I have not had yet.
However, I guess I get a little freaked out when Heb. 10:26 says "For if you continue to sin wilfully after receiving the knowlege of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin."
That's why I'm saying be careful...it's not a risk worth taking to rest too much on your "unconditional election" that you think you have, because it may lead you to be careless and think that all sin is just forgiven no matter what...
Also, I do disagree with you, and think that it is definitely possible to lose your salvation as that verse demonstrates by saying "...there remains no more sacrifice for sin". Hence, "be of a sober spirit, the devil is seeking whom he may devour". Just be thankful that you have received this knowledge of the truth, I am, I wouldn't risk it for anything in the whole world...Not saying that to you Glen!, but just as a reminder to myself and any others who will read this post, it's not an issue to play around with.
This could be a fitting verse to finish up with: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12.
A Christian must remain of a sober spirit, not just rest on their "unconditional election". There's a lot at stake to be blaze about it.
Thanks Glen,
Owen
Hey! Don't pin unconditional election on me! I was just talking about it like you. The fact that I said you can lose your salvation means I don't believe in unconditional election.
Sorry Glen,
Wasn't trying to pin unconditional election onto you, rather discussing the issue with you in regards to beloveds comment about it, which I thought was not a safe way to view your salvation, and likely to play right into the hands of Satan if you believed so, in that you will lose your vigilance towards sin, and its seriousness in relation to the "wages of sin being death".
Relying on unconditional election or even believing yourself to be one of the elect may draw you off guard from maintaining a sober spirit, and bringing captive the sin to Jesus, regardless of whether you are elect or not, I beleive only God knows, and we will only find out in His time, and I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they take light of their salvation by the blood of Christ, and keep sinning just because they consider themselves unconditionally elected!
Thanks for the discussion and your time Glen,
Owen
Thank you, Owen!
That's ok, I am wondering though, it's sometimes confusing to me, since Paul says that "neither drunkards...etc...will enter the kingdom of God", but he also says "there is no condemnation to those which are in Christ Jesus".
So, this is a bit confusing, I think I've sorted it out, that once you are in Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit changes your heart, so you will never be any of those things.
What do you think?
Thanks,
Owen
The same thing happens with John...where he says to Christians that they must confess their sins and to deny sinning was a sign that Christ isn't in us. Later in the same letter he goes on to say a Christian will not continue in sin. To non-Christians, these statements from Paul and John seem like contradictions. To those of us who understand the Bible can't contradict itself...being the Word of God, we have to seek to understand how they could both be true.
For me, as, it seems, for you, it isn't that we don't sin. Paul and Peter are recorded in the Bible as admitting to their own sin (after salvation). John says you're a lier if you don't admit it. What makes us different from the world is that we're pursuing just the opposite. With the help of Christ, we're battling this body of death to make it conform more and more to His likeness. Where the world says, "Hey, everybody does it," we say, "God please forgive me and help me to never do it again."
Alright, thanks for your help Glen.
I have come to the conclusion that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ. Once we become Christians, we are "hidden in Christ with God" Colossians 3:3. However, we can be devoured in this lifetime if we are not vigilant and obedient when it comes to sin, eventually it will kill us all anyway, and our bodies here will pass away. I don't think anybody that truly repents and receives Christ as Lord can be lost again, in that they will not wilfully sin anymore with the help of His Spirit helping them to overcome what needs to be overcome.
I know I don't live in the Spirit very often, I don't find it much easier not to sin, but there is new life there, where there wasn't before, so I am pretty sure that I am saved, and a verse that says I am "hidden in Christ with God" is very reassuring in that it seems unlikely that I can lose that spot, as I wouldn't want to wilfully sin after being truly repentant.
Some people say they have experiences where they think the Spirit is guiding them, but I am cautious to assume anything like that since there are other spirits around which yeah...walking to and fro etc...so I try to keep it simple to avoid any kind of false beliefs or things like that.
All I can say is that I have new life, new desires now, and I take that as the Spirit of Christ having renewed me, as for guidance I look to His Word.
I don't really think about election much, I think to do so could leave you vulnerable to becoming over-confident in your salvation, and means you may lose your vigilance towards sin, and not losing your salvation, but becoming less useful to God, and no doubt you would be disappointed where you would end up then. And I have caution because of some of what Paul says "Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" Corinthians 6: 9-11 (ASV). Therefore, to be in Christ is no small thing, and probably only the truly repentant and renewed man/woman could turn away from those things.
Therefore, I will be careful and sober-minded about the whole thing, but I am pretty sure I am saved with assurance, but definitely stay away from those things! We are not saved by our works, so maybe it is our renewed and sanctified selves that with God's help, we are able to do all this, and all the real Christians really will end up none of those things!
Who knows...perhaps Paul was talking about people that didn't change, but just kept on doing things even though they knew it was sin.
Your thoughts Glen?
You're welcome! Every Christian struggles with their old sinful nature. Otherwise, there would be no reason for Christ to "complete" the work He "began" in us. It would be complete already. After God used Paul as an apostle for over ten years, working miracles and reaching thousands for Christ, Paul; still struggled with sin (see Romans 7-8). He and others give us our assurance of salvation because the deceiver uses every instance of our sin as cause to try to convince us we really haven't been changed into "a new creation." The fact that we struggle with sin, the fact that we care at all, the fact that we wonder and speculate on this issue and try to grow in Him, these are all proof He's working in us and we have nothing to fear. Unless we purposefully turn our backs on Him and begin working against Him, in my opinion, our salvation is assured.
Hi Glen,
Thanks for your help.
I do have another question, my dad says things to me that it is the Spirit of Christ that wrote the whole Bible, and of course when the Holy Spirit is mentioned, I kind of freeze since you don't want to blaspheme or greive Him, so that really is very discouraging from pursuing a Christian life, since you would rather not risk doing anything wrong in this area!
I mean this could be the reason why many aren't useful and don't pursue Christianity, that it is scary, I mean an unforgiveable sin, that's pretty scary to me, especially when sin is even a thought, and so I don't try to even think in this area about anything that comes up there.
So my question is, I never thought Jesus did anything except from the power of God, I didn't believe He had a devil like some of the people that were there at the time when this was all happening back whenever it was. So, I have trouble fitting the concept of me being a human being, and those disciples being like me before they were Jesus disciples, so how much is from men there, and how much is the Holy Ghost talking through them.
How much of the Bible did He write, every single word, or did He work through men to make it understandable for us. I don't know really, not a subject that I like to talk or think about. So, I also struggle with what is relevant for our times today from what Paul said, given the context of his letters to the churches, and all that...So, did the Holy Spirit write everything, every single word?
How does that line up in that man selected the canon of Scriptures?
I am confused, and can hardly connect man and the Holy Spirit, I get to the point where I know that the Holy Spirit was in Jesus, there is no question of this, and I believe the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost, it didn't seem the same (Jesus seems much more Holy and pure), probably because as they said, you can live in the Spirit or the flesh, what I am saying is doesn't that come through in their writings?
I don't know...I struggle, I don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit, so I do what the rest of the scriptures say, but I only really have this heart for Jesus and who He was and is, and the rest I don't know what is man, what is Holy Spirit?
Thanks Glen,
Owen
The reason for my questions is because they were filled with the Holy Ghost, and they said new Christians were then as well. Since there was many miracles there, and the fruit of the Spirit and all those things, and then all the miracles stopped, so I'm asking whether really we are expected to follow these letters, since the Spirit (from what it looks like) was much more evident in the early Christian church to build it up, I mean what is relevant for us today?
I've even heard people say that the Spirit is relatively dormant now, since 500A.D or something like that.
So, we struggle to pursue this, when quite possibly He (the Holy Spirit) did a lot more for them than He does for us now (I don't know, just asking), and we pursue this, and my father is always saying to me, love, peace etc... Fruit of the Spirit, when I have read the Spirit doesn't do as much nowadays since He was needed much more by the early Church to get people to believe, not many people believed without miracles.
So, what is up, what is down with this? I mean the disciples were just filled with the Holy Ghost, instantly, I've never experienced anything like that, and the Holy Spirit seemed so pure in Jesus. I am very confused...
Hi Owen! It seems like you're getting what my friend used to call "wrapped around the axle" on this subject. It would be good to read http://www.web-church.com/apf4/christian-family-store.cgi?Operation=ItemLookup&ItemId=0840744196 by Josh McDowell to get a better handle on how the Canon of Scripture was decided upon. Basically, they took what was accepted as authentic by the Christians at the time. I have a book called "the other bible" that includes what was left out. In my opinion, they made very good choices.
Now, since none of the Bible was written by Jesus and all of it was recorded from memory by men, you're going to have a problem deciding what to believe. Even the words in red were written down by people. You're faced with the dilemma many have been led away from God by...how much of the Bible is God's Word? The answer we have to come to is either all of it or none of it. Since every element of the Christian faith is based on the Bible as God's Word, rather than personal experience, I have no problem believing the whole Bible is God's word...every word of it in the original language. Now, there is no reasoning that can "prove" the Bible is 100% God's Word. The only thing we can do is place our faith in the authorship of the Holy Spirit and trust God to help us understand Him. I've done this for decades, now, and can't begin to tell you all the blessings I've received. I challenge you to do the same. If you get that book I recommended, it will relieve a lot of your concerns.
Ok, I didn't buy that book. But I looked into other versions of the New Testament instead. I was choosing between the Young's Literal and the Concordant Literal, and the Concordant Literal it is, supposed to be just as pen to paper translation. Hopefully that will make a good adjunct to my TNIV.
Hopefully that helps.
Having translated a good bit of the New Testament from the original language, I can recommend the NASB as the most literal word-for-word translation I've seen, but it's difficult to understand at times. The best translation I've found that takes into account context and meaning as well as word-for-word is the NIV. Being literal is not necessarily a good thing, given how the meanings of words change over time. For example, someone translating from the 1950's and from the 1990's, the American English phrase, "There were many gay activities at the party," would get two very different ideas of what the party was about.
Alright, thanks for the advice. I am sticking with the TNIV, and I ordered a Concordant Literal from concordant publishing without thinking I was ordering it, and now will probably be buying that one as well. I won't know how difficult it is to understand it until I read it will I? Thanks anyway Owen
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)