Why is it necessary to believe the Trinity dogma? I am fully aware of the Biblical references used to support this idea, so I'm not interested in going through those. What I am interested in is, why this is an immutable central pillar of post 4th century belief and what could the consequences be for not accepting this precept?
As I said, I have heard all the Biblical justifications for this belief, but no one seems to be able to explain why it's necessary to accept it. What possible difference can it make how one understands the relationship between the Father, his son and the Holy Spirit?
Full Version: Trinity
Why is it neccessary to believe in the trinity, a 4th century dogma?........You are right. Why would it be neccessary to follow a man-made belief that did not originate with pure christianity and the bible. More so, why would it be a "pillar"
in our faith?
However, Jesus explained that it was fundamental to undertstand the truth about God and his purpose. He said in John 4 : 34 that our worship should be not only with spirit but also with truth. Moreover, in 1 tim 2:3-5, its says the the will of God is to come to know him and Jesus Christ, but not how we would like to interpret it, rather with truth, what ever that is in God's eyes.
in our faith?
However, Jesus explained that it was fundamental to undertstand the truth about God and his purpose. He said in John 4 : 34 that our worship should be not only with spirit but also with truth. Moreover, in 1 tim 2:3-5, its says the the will of God is to come to know him and Jesus Christ, but not how we would like to interpret it, rather with truth, what ever that is in God's eyes.
I guess this forum isn't used much, since this is not only the only reply, but it comes a month and a half after my posting. I was sort of surprised when I received notification of a reply at all.
Anyway, I'm not sure what to make of your response. Are you saying that in fact it doesn't matter what we believe or do you concur that "Trinity" is a man-made dogma? If the latter, I was beginning to think that I was the only person in the world that noticed this. I phrased my question the way I did because whenever I start out by expressing my belief that "Tinity" is a doctrine concocted by the Roman Catholic Church at the first Nicean Council, people always get extremely defensive, angry and/or belligerent. I have been involved with a large number of denominations over the years and it has been made absolutely clear to me that I am not welcome in any of them unless I do accept the impossible dogma that God and his Son are actually the same being, yet some how separate. This always brings to my mind George Orwell's (from the book 1984) concept of "double think" wherein a person holds and simultaneously believes two contradicting ideas. While the verses used by most Christians to support their notion of a triune God are thin at best, I believe that Paul makes it exceedingly clear that he believed that God the Father and his Son Jesus were in fact totally separate entities. This is exemplified by your quote of 1 Tim. 2:5 and Paul's explanation of Jesus' relationship with God in 1 Cor. 15: 20-28.
However, my concern is not so much with what I believe as I am totally secure in my understanding, but my concern is with the effect to those who do believe in and promulgate this falsity. When I read 2 Thes. 2: 4 I believe that Paul is saying that this idea of "Trinity" is the indication of anti-christ. The "son of perdition" that Paul speaks of is Satan (Lucifer), who is in fact a son of God (though not a "begotten" son) and who would have men worship him as God, usurping God's throne, so to speak. I further believe that Paul's allusion to him "sitting in the temple of God" is Satan's infiltration of the Church, as believers are consistently portrayed as being the "temple of God" in the New Testament and that his "showing himself to be God" refers to the idea of "Trinity," in that while being a son of God, Lucifer desires to be God and to be worshipped as such. I also believe that this is further reinforced by Paul in verses 11 and 12, "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth..." (NIV) Jesus clearly states that it is possible to think that one is following truth, but in reality not: "22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Mt 7:22-23 NIV) Jesus also closes the parable of the unjust judge with (Lk 18: 8b NIV) "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" This is more than a rhetorical question, it is a clear warning!
My problem therefore, is what to do with this knowledge. I can find no Christian church that does not hold to "Trinity" implicitly (except for possibly "Christian Scientists" and "Unitarians," neither of which I beleive to actually be "Christian" at all). To me it is the epitome of smugness to think that I alone see this truth, yet I seem to be unable to find a group of Christians who do not believe that the Father and Son (whether they technically believe in the "Trinity" or some other form of plural Godhead) are one and the same being. I often feel like Diogenes who "spent his days walking the streets of Athens, with a lighted lantern -- looking for an honest man!"
Anyway, I'm not sure what to make of your response. Are you saying that in fact it doesn't matter what we believe or do you concur that "Trinity" is a man-made dogma? If the latter, I was beginning to think that I was the only person in the world that noticed this. I phrased my question the way I did because whenever I start out by expressing my belief that "Tinity" is a doctrine concocted by the Roman Catholic Church at the first Nicean Council, people always get extremely defensive, angry and/or belligerent. I have been involved with a large number of denominations over the years and it has been made absolutely clear to me that I am not welcome in any of them unless I do accept the impossible dogma that God and his Son are actually the same being, yet some how separate. This always brings to my mind George Orwell's (from the book 1984) concept of "double think" wherein a person holds and simultaneously believes two contradicting ideas. While the verses used by most Christians to support their notion of a triune God are thin at best, I believe that Paul makes it exceedingly clear that he believed that God the Father and his Son Jesus were in fact totally separate entities. This is exemplified by your quote of 1 Tim. 2:5 and Paul's explanation of Jesus' relationship with God in 1 Cor. 15: 20-28.
However, my concern is not so much with what I believe as I am totally secure in my understanding, but my concern is with the effect to those who do believe in and promulgate this falsity. When I read 2 Thes. 2: 4 I believe that Paul is saying that this idea of "Trinity" is the indication of anti-christ. The "son of perdition" that Paul speaks of is Satan (Lucifer), who is in fact a son of God (though not a "begotten" son) and who would have men worship him as God, usurping God's throne, so to speak. I further believe that Paul's allusion to him "sitting in the temple of God" is Satan's infiltration of the Church, as believers are consistently portrayed as being the "temple of God" in the New Testament and that his "showing himself to be God" refers to the idea of "Trinity," in that while being a son of God, Lucifer desires to be God and to be worshipped as such. I also believe that this is further reinforced by Paul in verses 11 and 12, "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth..." (NIV) Jesus clearly states that it is possible to think that one is following truth, but in reality not: "22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Mt 7:22-23 NIV) Jesus also closes the parable of the unjust judge with (Lk 18: 8b NIV) "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" This is more than a rhetorical question, it is a clear warning!
My problem therefore, is what to do with this knowledge. I can find no Christian church that does not hold to "Trinity" implicitly (except for possibly "Christian Scientists" and "Unitarians," neither of which I beleive to actually be "Christian" at all). To me it is the epitome of smugness to think that I alone see this truth, yet I seem to be unable to find a group of Christians who do not believe that the Father and Son (whether they technically believe in the "Trinity" or some other form of plural Godhead) are one and the same being. I often feel like Diogenes who "spent his days walking the streets of Athens, with a lighted lantern -- looking for an honest man!"
Dear Rebell,
"What possible difference can it make how one understands the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?"
Well, there is One God. He has chosen three ways to reveal Himself. This was necessary so that men could understand and know Him. God is spirit, truth, freedom, love, justice, and grace- incomprehensible to us except as He sees fit to reveal Himself to us. Our greatest need is to know Him.
You said, " it has been made absolutely clear to me that I am not welcome in any of them unless I do accept the impossible dogma that God and his Son are actually the same being, yet some how separate."
The Jehovah of the OT is the Christ of the NT. That there is One God there is no doubt.
ex.
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no Savior.
Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside Me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:21,22
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsels together; Who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look unto Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM God, and there is none else.
Compare this with Acts 4:10-12
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand whole. This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other "name" [stands for whole person] given under heaven among men, whereby men must be saved."
Also, compare Isaiah 48:12 with Rev 1:8.
"Trinity" is indeed a man made term. The deity of Christ however is undeniable. How else do you explain Isaiah 9:6?-
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
God as the Father is invisible. He took creature form to create and human form to redeem. Jesus was SENT. He laid aside His glory to accomplish the work of His Father, but He and the Father are One. Jesus was a Counselor. When He knew His death was near, He told His apostles that He would send them "another" Counselor, i.e. the Holy Spirit.
"For ye are saved by grace through faith" If one has faith in Him, it follows that a believer would desire to know Him. Eph 1:17, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him"
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Tim 3:16)
Chosen
"What possible difference can it make how one understands the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?"
Well, there is One God. He has chosen three ways to reveal Himself. This was necessary so that men could understand and know Him. God is spirit, truth, freedom, love, justice, and grace- incomprehensible to us except as He sees fit to reveal Himself to us. Our greatest need is to know Him.
You said, " it has been made absolutely clear to me that I am not welcome in any of them unless I do accept the impossible dogma that God and his Son are actually the same being, yet some how separate."
The Jehovah of the OT is the Christ of the NT. That there is One God there is no doubt.
ex.
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no Savior.
Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside Me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:21,22
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsels together; Who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look unto Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM God, and there is none else.
Compare this with Acts 4:10-12
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand whole. This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other "name" [stands for whole person] given under heaven among men, whereby men must be saved."
Also, compare Isaiah 48:12 with Rev 1:8.
"Trinity" is indeed a man made term. The deity of Christ however is undeniable. How else do you explain Isaiah 9:6?-
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
God as the Father is invisible. He took creature form to create and human form to redeem. Jesus was SENT. He laid aside His glory to accomplish the work of His Father, but He and the Father are One. Jesus was a Counselor. When He knew His death was near, He told His apostles that He would send them "another" Counselor, i.e. the Holy Spirit.
"For ye are saved by grace through faith" If one has faith in Him, it follows that a believer would desire to know Him. Eph 1:17, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him"
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Tim 3:16)
Chosen
As I said in my first post, I am thoroughly aware of the Biblical references used to support "Trinity" and as I said in my second post, these passages are thin at best. But as I also said in my first post, I do not care to debate these apologetics, and especially not with someone who blindly and dogmatically spews forth the things they are told with no, or at best, extremely limited personal knowledge of the Bible and the languages it was written in. But to make an answer for my belief as I am instructed by Paul, there are ONLY two passages in the entirtey of the Bible that even come close to saying that God and his Son are one and the same, those being 1) your quote, Isaiah 9:6 and 2) 1 John 5:7 (KJV). As to Is. 9:6, there is a discussion in the Brown-Drivers-Briggs Lexicon of Hebrew that says the phrase "The Mighty God" as translated in the KJV would better be translated "The Mighty [one] of God, which would nullify the use of that passage to justify the Son AS God. In the second instance, 1 Jn. 5:7, the footnote in the NIV relates that the entirtey of verse 7 is ONLY found in late (newer) manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate and ARE NOT found in ANY Greek manuscript prior to the sixteenth century; further study will show that the consensus of scolarly opinion is that verse 7 was a marginal note that was mistakenly copied into the text and should not appear at all, which effectively rules that out as justification for "Trinity."
The most often used verse to "prove" "Trinity" is John 10: 30, "I and my Father are one." (KJV) However, with just a basic comprehension of English it becomes abundantly clear that Jesus DID NOT claim the he and his Father were one and the same entity, as is clearly shown in context with the following passage (vs. 31 - 36). Verse 31 says (after Christ's statement of "I and my Father are one"), "31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him." If Christ was saying, as those professing "Trinity" claim, that he and the Father were the one and same entity, then the Jews WOULD have been justified in stoning him for blasphemy as they contend in verse 33. "32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." By way of explanation, Christ gives an example where God calls MEN gods, referring to their statement, because thou, being a man, makest thyself God." "34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" One needs to also carefully look at verse 36; Jesus says, "Say yea of him, [whom the Father hath (sanctified) and sent into the world], Thou blasphemest; because I said, [I am the Son of God]?" Notice the word "sanctified," as used here (check the Greek) the word means "to cut off from" and not "to make holy" as trinityists claim. At this point one needs to look at Jn. 1: 1 and 14 to see that this is what John was saying, that Jesus was "cut off" from God. (Jn. 1: 1 KJV)
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." One needs to have some basic knowledge of English grammar, but the key word in this passage is "was." In the first instance "was" indicates existance, but in the second and third instances "was" indicates A PAST STATE OF BEING! And especially in the third instance "was" implies a CHANGE OF STATE. And in verse 14 John declares that change of state. Jn 1:14 "14 And the Word was made flesh..." (in the Greek the sense of "made flesh" is "made to become"). Also notice that the passage DOES NOT say, "And GOD was made flesh," but that "the WORD was made flesh." The WORD is an aspect or attribute OF God and NOT his entirtey. This "attribute" God cut off from himself (sanctified) and caused the WORD to become flesh. There is much more to this evidence than I have gone into here, but this is the basics.
Maybe a crude example might help you understand the above and it's significance. Lets say a carpenter needs to drive a nail, but he is unable to do this with his bare hand, so he needs and employs a tool; a hammer. Now tell me, who drove the nail, the carpenter or the hammer? Actually, both did. The carpenter supplied the impetus and the hammer accomplished the work. It is clearly obvious that the hammer could not have done the work WITHOUT the carpenter's impetus and guidence. In the SAME manner God needed a tool to do (at the very least) one thing He could NOT do personally, which is to die. The law DEMANDED that someone had to die for Adams sin, but God CANNOT die, dying is CEASING to be, if God dies, EVERYTHING ceases to be. So God made himself a hammer to do the work (Jesus). Just as both the carpenter AND the hammer drove the nail, so are both God AND Jesus savior. Again there is an extremely large amount of evidence that this is the case, this is ONLY a brief example. Finally, look at John 3: 16, "For God so loved the world that he GAVE His only BEGOTTEN son..." There is much in this passage to show that God and Jesus ARE NOT the same entity, but let us look ONLY at the word "begotten." The word means "to issue out of." Just as the "begotten" son of humans is made of the stuff of humans and "issues out of" a human, becoming a totally separate being, so is the Son of God. He was made of the stuff of God (the Word) and issued out of God to become a totally separate being, so that he might be offered as the PERFECT sacrifice for sin.
One last thing, if when Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," he meant that they were one and the same entity, then it must be that ALL true Christians are God as one and the same entity. Jesus prays to the Father and says, "Jn 17:11, 22 "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that [they may be one as (in the same manner) we are one]... 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that [they may be one as (again, in the same manner) we are one..." There are a number of other passages that make this same allusion, like Romans 8: 17. But I would hazzard that NO ONE would actually CLAIM to be God on the basis of these passages (except maybe Mormons), but these pasages refer to the identical ONENESS that Jesus meant in John 10: 30. (Also note that Jesus says that "he" gave "them" the SAME glory that God gave him. This is important because Trinityists claim that Jesus IS God because he receives God's glory and in the Old Testament God says he will share His glory WITH NO ONE! Therefore, Christ's glory must NOT be the same glory God was speaking of in the Old Testament, or else, again, Christians must BE God to receive that glory).
The "Trinity" is a LIE of Satan and IS anti-christ! But in the end, it is entirely up to you what you believe and whether you personally search out the truth, but REMEBER Christ's warning, "22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" (Mt 7: 22,23 NIV) and Paul's, "9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that [deceives those who are perishing]. They perish because [they refused to love the truth] and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth..." (2 Th 2: 9-12 NIV)
The most often used verse to "prove" "Trinity" is John 10: 30, "I and my Father are one." (KJV) However, with just a basic comprehension of English it becomes abundantly clear that Jesus DID NOT claim the he and his Father were one and the same entity, as is clearly shown in context with the following passage (vs. 31 - 36). Verse 31 says (after Christ's statement of "I and my Father are one"), "31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him." If Christ was saying, as those professing "Trinity" claim, that he and the Father were the one and same entity, then the Jews WOULD have been justified in stoning him for blasphemy as they contend in verse 33. "32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." By way of explanation, Christ gives an example where God calls MEN gods, referring to their statement, because thou, being a man, makest thyself God." "34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" One needs to also carefully look at verse 36; Jesus says, "Say yea of him, [whom the Father hath (sanctified) and sent into the world], Thou blasphemest; because I said, [I am the Son of God]?" Notice the word "sanctified," as used here (check the Greek) the word means "to cut off from" and not "to make holy" as trinityists claim. At this point one needs to look at Jn. 1: 1 and 14 to see that this is what John was saying, that Jesus was "cut off" from God. (Jn. 1: 1 KJV)
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." One needs to have some basic knowledge of English grammar, but the key word in this passage is "was." In the first instance "was" indicates existance, but in the second and third instances "was" indicates A PAST STATE OF BEING! And especially in the third instance "was" implies a CHANGE OF STATE. And in verse 14 John declares that change of state. Jn 1:14 "14 And the Word was made flesh..." (in the Greek the sense of "made flesh" is "made to become"). Also notice that the passage DOES NOT say, "And GOD was made flesh," but that "the WORD was made flesh." The WORD is an aspect or attribute OF God and NOT his entirtey. This "attribute" God cut off from himself (sanctified) and caused the WORD to become flesh. There is much more to this evidence than I have gone into here, but this is the basics.
Maybe a crude example might help you understand the above and it's significance. Lets say a carpenter needs to drive a nail, but he is unable to do this with his bare hand, so he needs and employs a tool; a hammer. Now tell me, who drove the nail, the carpenter or the hammer? Actually, both did. The carpenter supplied the impetus and the hammer accomplished the work. It is clearly obvious that the hammer could not have done the work WITHOUT the carpenter's impetus and guidence. In the SAME manner God needed a tool to do (at the very least) one thing He could NOT do personally, which is to die. The law DEMANDED that someone had to die for Adams sin, but God CANNOT die, dying is CEASING to be, if God dies, EVERYTHING ceases to be. So God made himself a hammer to do the work (Jesus). Just as both the carpenter AND the hammer drove the nail, so are both God AND Jesus savior. Again there is an extremely large amount of evidence that this is the case, this is ONLY a brief example. Finally, look at John 3: 16, "For God so loved the world that he GAVE His only BEGOTTEN son..." There is much in this passage to show that God and Jesus ARE NOT the same entity, but let us look ONLY at the word "begotten." The word means "to issue out of." Just as the "begotten" son of humans is made of the stuff of humans and "issues out of" a human, becoming a totally separate being, so is the Son of God. He was made of the stuff of God (the Word) and issued out of God to become a totally separate being, so that he might be offered as the PERFECT sacrifice for sin.
One last thing, if when Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," he meant that they were one and the same entity, then it must be that ALL true Christians are God as one and the same entity. Jesus prays to the Father and says, "Jn 17:11, 22 "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that [they may be one as (in the same manner) we are one]... 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that [they may be one as (again, in the same manner) we are one..." There are a number of other passages that make this same allusion, like Romans 8: 17. But I would hazzard that NO ONE would actually CLAIM to be God on the basis of these passages (except maybe Mormons), but these pasages refer to the identical ONENESS that Jesus meant in John 10: 30. (Also note that Jesus says that "he" gave "them" the SAME glory that God gave him. This is important because Trinityists claim that Jesus IS God because he receives God's glory and in the Old Testament God says he will share His glory WITH NO ONE! Therefore, Christ's glory must NOT be the same glory God was speaking of in the Old Testament, or else, again, Christians must BE God to receive that glory).
The "Trinity" is a LIE of Satan and IS anti-christ! But in the end, it is entirely up to you what you believe and whether you personally search out the truth, but REMEBER Christ's warning, "22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" (Mt 7: 22,23 NIV) and Paul's, "9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that [deceives those who are perishing]. They perish because [they refused to love the truth] and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth..." (2 Th 2: 9-12 NIV)
Rebell,
You have chosen a complex subject. I appreciate a challenge. I would first like to look at the scripture in 2Thess 2:9-12. Rev 13 confirms this unholy "trinity". Everything Satan does is a counterfeit. His aim is to be worshiped as God. The very first prophecy in the Bible in Gen 3:15 tells us of his ultimate end. Satan is the father of the lie, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the prince of demons, the accuser, the serpent, the dragon, the devil. Ezek 28:11-19 gives us a telling description of Satan's aim and of his end.
Before his death, Jesus spoke of Satan as "the prince of this world"-
John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 14
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
John 16
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Satan and the beast and the false prophet will deceive many. Satan is after all, the father of the lie from the beginning. John 8:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he is a liar, and the father of it."
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John 1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same [the Word or He] was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
"In the beginning WAS the Word"...The Word existed before the ages.
"the Word was WITH God"..."With" suggests personal presence and relationship.
"the Word WAS God"... The Word was God. The Word therefore has the same attributes as God. God is infinite, eternal, perfect, and all powerful.
1John 1:1,2
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Proverbs 8:23
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Psalms 90:2
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.
John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
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Rebell, Who is the Creator?
Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (The Holy spirit was part of this creation as shown in Gen 1:2)
God created.
Hebrews 1:
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
Hebrews 11:
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Col 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His Dear Son:
14 In Whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature:
16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
God created. The Son created. The worlds were "framed" by the Word of God.
Now, we know there is One God, and yet we also know that our One true God has manifested Himself in several ways so that we may know Him. You used the analogy of a carpenter and a nail in describing the relationship between the Father and the Son. Here is what the Son said in John 14:10, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works". Similarly, John 15:1, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman."
Like you, I do not like to use unscriptural terms like "trinity". The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Spirit, but each are God doing things in different ways. One God.
Titus 3:4,2:10 "God our Savior"
Titus 3:6,2:13 "Lord Jesus Christ our Savior"
Rev 1:8
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, Which was, and Which is to come, even the Almighty.
[The true revelation of Christ is in Revelation 19:11-16. Notice His names]
1John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Chosen
You have chosen a complex subject. I appreciate a challenge. I would first like to look at the scripture in 2Thess 2:9-12. Rev 13 confirms this unholy "trinity". Everything Satan does is a counterfeit. His aim is to be worshiped as God. The very first prophecy in the Bible in Gen 3:15 tells us of his ultimate end. Satan is the father of the lie, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the prince of demons, the accuser, the serpent, the dragon, the devil. Ezek 28:11-19 gives us a telling description of Satan's aim and of his end.
Before his death, Jesus spoke of Satan as "the prince of this world"-
John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 14
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
John 16
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Satan and the beast and the false prophet will deceive many. Satan is after all, the father of the lie from the beginning. John 8:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he is a liar, and the father of it."
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John 1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same [the Word or He] was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
"In the beginning WAS the Word"...The Word existed before the ages.
"the Word was WITH God"..."With" suggests personal presence and relationship.
"the Word WAS God"... The Word was God. The Word therefore has the same attributes as God. God is infinite, eternal, perfect, and all powerful.
1John 1:1,2
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Proverbs 8:23
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Psalms 90:2
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.
John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
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Rebell, Who is the Creator?
Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (The Holy spirit was part of this creation as shown in Gen 1:2)
God created.
Hebrews 1:
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
Hebrews 11:
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Col 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His Dear Son:
14 In Whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature:
16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
God created. The Son created. The worlds were "framed" by the Word of God.
Now, we know there is One God, and yet we also know that our One true God has manifested Himself in several ways so that we may know Him. You used the analogy of a carpenter and a nail in describing the relationship between the Father and the Son. Here is what the Son said in John 14:10, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works". Similarly, John 15:1, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman."
Like you, I do not like to use unscriptural terms like "trinity". The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Spirit, but each are God doing things in different ways. One God.
Titus 3:4,2:10 "God our Savior"
Titus 3:6,2:13 "Lord Jesus Christ our Savior"
Rev 1:8
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, Which was, and Which is to come, even the Almighty.
[The true revelation of Christ is in Revelation 19:11-16. Notice His names]
1John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Chosen
Well, that's why I don't wish to discuss this matter. Without a doubt it IS the most important issue, but modern Christians are either too stupid or so drunk on the wine of the Great Whore they can't or won't accept plain English. Of course Jesus can say, "Before Abraham was I am," but "I am" IS NOT God's name!!!! Are you so terrified of being outcast by those who are perishing that you will accept ANYTHING they feed you, no matter how ridiculous and contrary to the language and reason it is?!? Of course you will!! It's more important to you to "fit in" than to be saved (just look at the Jews of Jesus' time), but that IS what Jesus, Peter and Paul said would happen. It utterly amazes me the capacity of the human mind to blithely accept the convoluted lies of the Catholic Church (the Great Whore).
It would be laughable if it were not so utterly pathetic, sheep to the slaughter! But it is the stuff that holds ALL "religious" systems together. Research the term "doublethink" and you might, just might, though I doubt you have the courage, start to understand just how Satan confuses and deludes people. You can't even see that the Bible plainly says that the corruption of the truth happens WITHIN the Church, not without (look at what Peter says in his letters and cross reference those things). Here's something to ponder:
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs
in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
The prevailing mental condition is controlled insanity.
The rules of the Inner Party are held together by adherence to a common doctrine. For a Party member, not even the smallest deviation of opinion on the most unimportant subject can be tolerated. But it is also necessary to remember that events happened in the desired manner. And if it is necessary to rearrange one's memories or to tamper with written records, then it is necessary to forget that one has done so. The trick of doing this can be learned like any other mental technique. It is learned by the majority of Party members, and certainly by all who are intelligent as well as orthodox. In Oldspeak it is called, quite frankly, "reality control." In Newspeak, it is called doublethink, though doublethink comprises much else as well.
The above is an explanation of the concept of "doublethink" from George Orwell's book "1984," but it is true of ALL "systems" where men pray on the need of people in general to cling to one another for comfort and safety. It is as true for the Church as it is for the social totallitarianism of Communism, just look at what Paul said about having to chide Peter for his disemination whenever the Jewish Christians came around (oh, you thought Paul was talking about Jews, not Christians, but why would the Jews be visiting Christians?). It is so heart wrenching sad that people choose to follow the doctrines of men than to trust the Spirit to make plain to them the truth, but that is the nature of fear, and by fear is how Satan rules! I truely hope, for the sake of the billions of Christians who believe as you do, that you are right, as I, like Paul, would be willing to be cut off, were it to be able to save my brothers, but it can't. The seeming inability of modern Christians to accept the Spirit and thereby know the truth, is the single driving force that allows Islam to be the fastest growing religion in the world! (See 2 Peter 1: 16 - 2: 3)
Never-the-less, you have the absolute right (isn't that what the Constitution says?) to believe ANYTHING you choose, just as I do. But, if you are wrong about the nature and relationship of God and Christ and right about everything else, your choice is weighed for eternity. May God bless you with the knowledge of his Son, who is the Christ, the only begotten of the Father.
It would be laughable if it were not so utterly pathetic, sheep to the slaughter! But it is the stuff that holds ALL "religious" systems together. Research the term "doublethink" and you might, just might, though I doubt you have the courage, start to understand just how Satan confuses and deludes people. You can't even see that the Bible plainly says that the corruption of the truth happens WITHIN the Church, not without (look at what Peter says in his letters and cross reference those things). Here's something to ponder:
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs
in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
The prevailing mental condition is controlled insanity.
The rules of the Inner Party are held together by adherence to a common doctrine. For a Party member, not even the smallest deviation of opinion on the most unimportant subject can be tolerated. But it is also necessary to remember that events happened in the desired manner. And if it is necessary to rearrange one's memories or to tamper with written records, then it is necessary to forget that one has done so. The trick of doing this can be learned like any other mental technique. It is learned by the majority of Party members, and certainly by all who are intelligent as well as orthodox. In Oldspeak it is called, quite frankly, "reality control." In Newspeak, it is called doublethink, though doublethink comprises much else as well.
The above is an explanation of the concept of "doublethink" from George Orwell's book "1984," but it is true of ALL "systems" where men pray on the need of people in general to cling to one another for comfort and safety. It is as true for the Church as it is for the social totallitarianism of Communism, just look at what Paul said about having to chide Peter for his disemination whenever the Jewish Christians came around (oh, you thought Paul was talking about Jews, not Christians, but why would the Jews be visiting Christians?). It is so heart wrenching sad that people choose to follow the doctrines of men than to trust the Spirit to make plain to them the truth, but that is the nature of fear, and by fear is how Satan rules! I truely hope, for the sake of the billions of Christians who believe as you do, that you are right, as I, like Paul, would be willing to be cut off, were it to be able to save my brothers, but it can't. The seeming inability of modern Christians to accept the Spirit and thereby know the truth, is the single driving force that allows Islam to be the fastest growing religion in the world! (See 2 Peter 1: 16 - 2: 3)
Never-the-less, you have the absolute right (isn't that what the Constitution says?) to believe ANYTHING you choose, just as I do. But, if you are wrong about the nature and relationship of God and Christ and right about everything else, your choice is weighed for eternity. May God bless you with the knowledge of his Son, who is the Christ, the only begotten of the Father.
Whew!
Rebel, you said, " Of course Jesus can say, "Before Abraham was I am," but "I am" IS NOT God's name!!!! Are you so terrified of being outcast by those who are perishing that you will accept ANYTHING they feed you, no matter how ridiculous and contrary to the language and reason it is?!? Of course you will!! It's more important to you to "fit in" than to be saved (just look at the Jews of Jesus' time), but that IS what Jesus, Peter and Paul said would happen. It utterly amazes me the capacity of the human mind to blithely accept the convoluted lies of the Catholic Church (the Great Whore)."
You judge me wrongly. I am not part of any religious organization. I have never been Catholic. I do not attend "church". I read and study the bible and consider it to be our only trusted source of truth. The conclusions I reach are based on prayer for understanding as I study the Scriptures. Truth comes by revelation. I do not have perfect understanding. I have had to unlearn things I once believed were true and see that I was wrong as the eyes of my understanding are opened.
There are over 300 "titles" for God found in the Word. The first use of "I AM" is found in Exodus 3:6. "I" is an emphatic pronoun. God here is Elohim, the Creator. Christ founds the doctrine of resurrection on this verse. (Matt 22:31,32)
Exodus 3:
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, "Here am I."
5 And He said, "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."
6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:
13 And Moses said unto God, "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is His name? what shall I say unto them?"
14 And God said unto Moses," I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
15 And God said moreover unto Moses," Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD [Eternal] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is My name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
"I AM THAT I AM" 'ehyeh 'asher 'ehyeh, "I will be what I will be (or become)
Jehovah (LORD) means Eternal, the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The inspired definition is first given in Genesis 21:33, "And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God."
There is no doubt that the Catholic Church is corrupt and is religion at it's worst, but then there are so many that are also perverse. I am not convinced that " MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" found in Revelation 17 and 18 is the Catholic Church alone. I believe it is more likely the entire worldwide system of false religion. Jeremiah 50 and 51 also prophesy of it's destruction.
Why is Babylon mentioned in particular?
I do not trust in the doctrine of men. I trust in God and His inspired words. I compare scripture with scripture and try to study a subject out carefully, considering what comes before and what comes after.
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2Tim 1:7)
Ephesians 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in Him, which is the Head of all principality and power:
11 In Whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, Who hath raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Rebel, you said, " Of course Jesus can say, "Before Abraham was I am," but "I am" IS NOT God's name!!!! Are you so terrified of being outcast by those who are perishing that you will accept ANYTHING they feed you, no matter how ridiculous and contrary to the language and reason it is?!? Of course you will!! It's more important to you to "fit in" than to be saved (just look at the Jews of Jesus' time), but that IS what Jesus, Peter and Paul said would happen. It utterly amazes me the capacity of the human mind to blithely accept the convoluted lies of the Catholic Church (the Great Whore)."
You judge me wrongly. I am not part of any religious organization. I have never been Catholic. I do not attend "church". I read and study the bible and consider it to be our only trusted source of truth. The conclusions I reach are based on prayer for understanding as I study the Scriptures. Truth comes by revelation. I do not have perfect understanding. I have had to unlearn things I once believed were true and see that I was wrong as the eyes of my understanding are opened.
There are over 300 "titles" for God found in the Word. The first use of "I AM" is found in Exodus 3:6. "I" is an emphatic pronoun. God here is Elohim, the Creator. Christ founds the doctrine of resurrection on this verse. (Matt 22:31,32)
Exodus 3:
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, "Here am I."
5 And He said, "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."
6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:
13 And Moses said unto God, "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is His name? what shall I say unto them?"
14 And God said unto Moses," I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
15 And God said moreover unto Moses," Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD [Eternal] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is My name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
"I AM THAT I AM" 'ehyeh 'asher 'ehyeh, "I will be what I will be (or become)
Jehovah (LORD) means Eternal, the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The inspired definition is first given in Genesis 21:33, "And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God."
There is no doubt that the Catholic Church is corrupt and is religion at it's worst, but then there are so many that are also perverse. I am not convinced that " MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" found in Revelation 17 and 18 is the Catholic Church alone. I believe it is more likely the entire worldwide system of false religion. Jeremiah 50 and 51 also prophesy of it's destruction.
Why is Babylon mentioned in particular?
I do not trust in the doctrine of men. I trust in God and His inspired words. I compare scripture with scripture and try to study a subject out carefully, considering what comes before and what comes after.
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2Tim 1:7)
Ephesians 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in Him, which is the Head of all principality and power:
11 In Whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, Who hath raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
I generally don't get into these discussions because they usually just go 'round and 'round and edify no one, but since you acknowledge that understanding does not come from men, but by revelation, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try again.
You are correct that the traditions of men lead people astray, as Jesus told the Pharisees, "You make God's law of no effect by your traditions." This is the same thing that has happened in the Church. This is an extremely complex and far reaching issue, so I will try to lay a little ground work before getting back to who Jesus (Yeshua, that's Joshua [the same as the guy that actually brought the Children of Israel into the promised land] and yes, even the corruption of that name {Jesus} has a bearing on the whole issue) is and his relationship to the Father. First, we need to be careful about assuming things, as the old saw goes, "When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me." You say, "I read and study the bible and consider it to be our only trusted source of truth. The conclusions I reach are based on prayer for understanding as I study the Scriptures. Truth comes by revelation," this is true, but it implies that the conclusions I have come to are NOT based on prayer for understanding, since my conclusions don't agree with yours (and yes this IS implied whether you realize it or not). So, let me start off by being, as Paul said of himself, a bit foolish and tell you where I've come from.
Some 32 years ago I found myself in prison serving 9 years for a crime that not only did I not commit, but that the prosecution had to know I didn't commit. I was sent to a prison that had recently had a horrible riot and so we were on 24/7 lock down for over 9 months, each in one-man cells. I was having, as you might well understand, an extremely difficult time understanding why God was allowing me to be in this position. At that time I was not affiliated with any particular religious group, but I had been heavily influenced by the Pentacostal traditions. Since I had nothing to do there in my cell for some 15-16 hours a day, I decided to use that time to try and understand what God wanted from me, but I was at a loss as to whom to turn for guidance and as I was praying about this, it occurred to me that because ALL denominations were in disagreement with each other (even many within the different denominations) and that ALL held (at least amongst themselves) that they held the truth and all others were in error, that it was much more likely that they were ALL in error than that any particular one of them was "the true Church." A vast amount of both Paul's and Peter's writings confirmed this, so I said to God, "I repent of all I have done and believed that is in error. Fill me with your Spirit and give me understanding and wisdom as you promise in your Word, so that I might be a true follower of your son, Jesus. I will trust in you alone to reveal your truth through your indwelling Spirit." I then spent 15+ hours a day, for the following 9+ months praying, fasting and reading the Bible (both the KJV and the NIV, with various study aids such as the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance). I might add that all of the materials I recieved were donated by various people to whom I wrote. I was continually amazed at the things that were revealed to me. I started to see that many of the traditions that have been blindly accepted by "Christians" for centuries, were in fact corruptions of the truth. Not out right lies, but rather in most cases, very subtle twists. I began to piece together the picture of the then (in the Apostle's time) future and now present state of the Church and the rest followed with such simplicity that I was constantly flabergasted and awed.
Since I don't know how much I can actually write in one of these response panels, I will attempt to touch on a few things you mention and if you would care to get more detail, my email address is rebell1952 at Hotmail.
I think it best to start with the Great Whore. Surprisingly, the New Testament is little concerned about religions generally and pretty much focuses on the Church. There is passage after passage that speak of "false apostles," "false teachers" and false brethren" who act and work WITHIN the Church to corrupt it so badly that "the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." (2 Peter) As you will note, the Great Whore is drunk "on the blood of the saints" this is a referrence to the Church, not other religions as most greatly predate Christianity and though some HAVE persecuted the Church, most of the persecution came from Rome by the emporers and then under the guise of the Church, which was constituted by the last Roman Emporer, Constantine at the first Nicine Counsel. This is where and when "Trinity" was made a tenent of the Church and any who disagreed with this doctrine, and a very large number of Bishops, especially from the Middle East and Africa, did, were excommunicated and often killed. Which went a long way to discouraging dissent from the rest. So, to the name, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." Paul says that "the day of the Lord" cannot come until there be an apostasy (a falling away) first, this happened with the creation of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC), which is a slightly altered version of the religion of Babylon and is filled with the abominations of the earth with respect to things like idol worship (the greatest offence to God), worship of Mary "the Mother of God" (see references to "The Queen of Heaven"), the Priesthood, the changing of the Sabboth and on and on. Absolutely no other religious institution has EVER held the power and authority described in Revelation 17 since the resurrection of Christ, not even Islam (my personal theory about Islam is that Mohammed was a paranoid schizophenic [who are often obsessed with religious idealogy] reacting to the false doctrines of the RCC). The "Mother of Harlots" refers to Protestantism, here's why: In the Bible, a harlot is not thought of in the same exact way as the street walkers of today are. Jesus said, "Do you not know that if you lay with a harlot, you are married to her?" So, a harlot then is one who wrongfully usurps the lawful place of the wife. The Church is called the "Bride" or wife of Christ and clearly the RCC falsely claims that title. Therefore, as the Mother of Harlots, the RCC is the mother of all that issue from her, i.e. Protestantism, ALL of whom hold many of their mother's damnable doctrines, most notably "Trinity." Remember, Christ said, "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord... and I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you,'" and "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith in the earth?"
Quickly, as to "I am" being a name of God (and I don't like doing anything quickly, but space constrains me), God said of himself, "I am that I am," this is a reference to WHAT he is, not so much WHO he is, but even if we conclude that when God said to tell them, "I am has sent you," he was using it as a name for himself, it DOES NOT follow that Jesus was invoking God's name for himself, when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am." For that to be the case, he would have needed to say something on the order of "Before Abraham was, I am the I AM." But the statement made by Jesus simply speaks to his eternal existence. Remember, Jesus is The Word of God and as such HAS and DOES exist eternally, but NOT as part of some multi-facited God-head. Before his incarnation, Jesus did not exist, per se, as the Word of God, prior to incarnation, no more had a separate personality from God than does my arm have a separate personality from me. The attempt to use Elohim to prove that there IS a multi-facited God-head by pointing to the phrase "let us make man in our image" is erroneous. Elohim IS NOT plural, it is, if you will allow, uni-plural and signifies sovereignty, NOT plurality. It is used in exactly the same way that an earthly king would say, "Let us" do this or that, speaking as the sovereign of a nation. There is another point I'd like to make here, which is: the New Testament says that there was NO guile in Jesus. The word guile doesn't refer to falsity so much as cleverness, craftiness and/or trickery. When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," the Jews took up stones to stone him for blasphemy, but Jesus DEFENDED his remark as not being blasphemy with a rather lengthy, detailed explanation that ended with his claiming ONLY to be the "Son of God." If he was indeed guileless AND truely and completely God, the explanation would have not only been pointless, but misleading to the extreme. He should have said, "I'm not commiting blasphemy because, even though I am a man, I am ALSO God the Father!" But he didn't, so we are only left with the conclusion that Jesus and God were one in effect and not as being the self-same entity.
I have often been accused of being too smart for my own good and of using man's reasoning to try to understand the Bible. Most talk about God using the "foolish things" to confound the "wisdom of the wise" and so they seem to think that God wants us to abandon reason and logic in order to understand the truth. But nowhere is that stated as such. In fact, Paul says in 1 Cor. 14: 20, "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men," and in Hebrews 5: 12-14 it says, "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." The words of every language have, for the most part, specific meanings, both in themselves and in context and it is not too difficult to twist those meanings when translating from one language to another, especially when the languages have different rules of grammar and syntax and while this may have happened ocassionally by accident, the many times that "teachers of the Bible" have deliberately used the WRONG word in order to justify and/or prove their opinion of what they think a passage SHOULD mean, is where "man's wisdom" comes into play. God gave us minds that work rationally and logically, it's hard-wired in, so to think that God means for us to some how turn off our brain in order to understand his truth is ludicrous and anyone who teaches such nonsense is the fool. God gave us our mental ability so that we COULD reason, but as Paul says in 1 Co 2:12-14 "now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This is not to say that we must abandon reason, but only that we must be guided in our reason by the Spirit. However, even were we to abandon our intellect, the words God used would still need to mean what they were meant to mean, or else God would have used other words that DID mean what he wanted to say, especially in light of the guilelessness of God. God isn't trying to mislead us, MEN are.
Hopefully, I will be able to get all this in one post, but if you're interested in further communication, please write to me at rebell1952 at Hotmail, as can anyone who reads these posts and is interested in persuing this further.
You are correct that the traditions of men lead people astray, as Jesus told the Pharisees, "You make God's law of no effect by your traditions." This is the same thing that has happened in the Church. This is an extremely complex and far reaching issue, so I will try to lay a little ground work before getting back to who Jesus (Yeshua, that's Joshua [the same as the guy that actually brought the Children of Israel into the promised land] and yes, even the corruption of that name {Jesus} has a bearing on the whole issue) is and his relationship to the Father. First, we need to be careful about assuming things, as the old saw goes, "When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me." You say, "I read and study the bible and consider it to be our only trusted source of truth. The conclusions I reach are based on prayer for understanding as I study the Scriptures. Truth comes by revelation," this is true, but it implies that the conclusions I have come to are NOT based on prayer for understanding, since my conclusions don't agree with yours (and yes this IS implied whether you realize it or not). So, let me start off by being, as Paul said of himself, a bit foolish and tell you where I've come from.
Some 32 years ago I found myself in prison serving 9 years for a crime that not only did I not commit, but that the prosecution had to know I didn't commit. I was sent to a prison that had recently had a horrible riot and so we were on 24/7 lock down for over 9 months, each in one-man cells. I was having, as you might well understand, an extremely difficult time understanding why God was allowing me to be in this position. At that time I was not affiliated with any particular religious group, but I had been heavily influenced by the Pentacostal traditions. Since I had nothing to do there in my cell for some 15-16 hours a day, I decided to use that time to try and understand what God wanted from me, but I was at a loss as to whom to turn for guidance and as I was praying about this, it occurred to me that because ALL denominations were in disagreement with each other (even many within the different denominations) and that ALL held (at least amongst themselves) that they held the truth and all others were in error, that it was much more likely that they were ALL in error than that any particular one of them was "the true Church." A vast amount of both Paul's and Peter's writings confirmed this, so I said to God, "I repent of all I have done and believed that is in error. Fill me with your Spirit and give me understanding and wisdom as you promise in your Word, so that I might be a true follower of your son, Jesus. I will trust in you alone to reveal your truth through your indwelling Spirit." I then spent 15+ hours a day, for the following 9+ months praying, fasting and reading the Bible (both the KJV and the NIV, with various study aids such as the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance). I might add that all of the materials I recieved were donated by various people to whom I wrote. I was continually amazed at the things that were revealed to me. I started to see that many of the traditions that have been blindly accepted by "Christians" for centuries, were in fact corruptions of the truth. Not out right lies, but rather in most cases, very subtle twists. I began to piece together the picture of the then (in the Apostle's time) future and now present state of the Church and the rest followed with such simplicity that I was constantly flabergasted and awed.
Since I don't know how much I can actually write in one of these response panels, I will attempt to touch on a few things you mention and if you would care to get more detail, my email address is rebell1952 at Hotmail.
I think it best to start with the Great Whore. Surprisingly, the New Testament is little concerned about religions generally and pretty much focuses on the Church. There is passage after passage that speak of "false apostles," "false teachers" and false brethren" who act and work WITHIN the Church to corrupt it so badly that "the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." (2 Peter) As you will note, the Great Whore is drunk "on the blood of the saints" this is a referrence to the Church, not other religions as most greatly predate Christianity and though some HAVE persecuted the Church, most of the persecution came from Rome by the emporers and then under the guise of the Church, which was constituted by the last Roman Emporer, Constantine at the first Nicine Counsel. This is where and when "Trinity" was made a tenent of the Church and any who disagreed with this doctrine, and a very large number of Bishops, especially from the Middle East and Africa, did, were excommunicated and often killed. Which went a long way to discouraging dissent from the rest. So, to the name, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." Paul says that "the day of the Lord" cannot come until there be an apostasy (a falling away) first, this happened with the creation of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC), which is a slightly altered version of the religion of Babylon and is filled with the abominations of the earth with respect to things like idol worship (the greatest offence to God), worship of Mary "the Mother of God" (see references to "The Queen of Heaven"), the Priesthood, the changing of the Sabboth and on and on. Absolutely no other religious institution has EVER held the power and authority described in Revelation 17 since the resurrection of Christ, not even Islam (my personal theory about Islam is that Mohammed was a paranoid schizophenic [who are often obsessed with religious idealogy] reacting to the false doctrines of the RCC). The "Mother of Harlots" refers to Protestantism, here's why: In the Bible, a harlot is not thought of in the same exact way as the street walkers of today are. Jesus said, "Do you not know that if you lay with a harlot, you are married to her?" So, a harlot then is one who wrongfully usurps the lawful place of the wife. The Church is called the "Bride" or wife of Christ and clearly the RCC falsely claims that title. Therefore, as the Mother of Harlots, the RCC is the mother of all that issue from her, i.e. Protestantism, ALL of whom hold many of their mother's damnable doctrines, most notably "Trinity." Remember, Christ said, "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord... and I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you,'" and "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith in the earth?"
Quickly, as to "I am" being a name of God (and I don't like doing anything quickly, but space constrains me), God said of himself, "I am that I am," this is a reference to WHAT he is, not so much WHO he is, but even if we conclude that when God said to tell them, "I am has sent you," he was using it as a name for himself, it DOES NOT follow that Jesus was invoking God's name for himself, when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am." For that to be the case, he would have needed to say something on the order of "Before Abraham was, I am the I AM." But the statement made by Jesus simply speaks to his eternal existence. Remember, Jesus is The Word of God and as such HAS and DOES exist eternally, but NOT as part of some multi-facited God-head. Before his incarnation, Jesus did not exist, per se, as the Word of God, prior to incarnation, no more had a separate personality from God than does my arm have a separate personality from me. The attempt to use Elohim to prove that there IS a multi-facited God-head by pointing to the phrase "let us make man in our image" is erroneous. Elohim IS NOT plural, it is, if you will allow, uni-plural and signifies sovereignty, NOT plurality. It is used in exactly the same way that an earthly king would say, "Let us" do this or that, speaking as the sovereign of a nation. There is another point I'd like to make here, which is: the New Testament says that there was NO guile in Jesus. The word guile doesn't refer to falsity so much as cleverness, craftiness and/or trickery. When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," the Jews took up stones to stone him for blasphemy, but Jesus DEFENDED his remark as not being blasphemy with a rather lengthy, detailed explanation that ended with his claiming ONLY to be the "Son of God." If he was indeed guileless AND truely and completely God, the explanation would have not only been pointless, but misleading to the extreme. He should have said, "I'm not commiting blasphemy because, even though I am a man, I am ALSO God the Father!" But he didn't, so we are only left with the conclusion that Jesus and God were one in effect and not as being the self-same entity.
I have often been accused of being too smart for my own good and of using man's reasoning to try to understand the Bible. Most talk about God using the "foolish things" to confound the "wisdom of the wise" and so they seem to think that God wants us to abandon reason and logic in order to understand the truth. But nowhere is that stated as such. In fact, Paul says in 1 Cor. 14: 20, "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men," and in Hebrews 5: 12-14 it says, "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." The words of every language have, for the most part, specific meanings, both in themselves and in context and it is not too difficult to twist those meanings when translating from one language to another, especially when the languages have different rules of grammar and syntax and while this may have happened ocassionally by accident, the many times that "teachers of the Bible" have deliberately used the WRONG word in order to justify and/or prove their opinion of what they think a passage SHOULD mean, is where "man's wisdom" comes into play. God gave us minds that work rationally and logically, it's hard-wired in, so to think that God means for us to some how turn off our brain in order to understand his truth is ludicrous and anyone who teaches such nonsense is the fool. God gave us our mental ability so that we COULD reason, but as Paul says in 1 Co 2:12-14 "now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This is not to say that we must abandon reason, but only that we must be guided in our reason by the Spirit. However, even were we to abandon our intellect, the words God used would still need to mean what they were meant to mean, or else God would have used other words that DID mean what he wanted to say, especially in light of the guilelessness of God. God isn't trying to mislead us, MEN are.
Hopefully, I will be able to get all this in one post, but if you're interested in further communication, please write to me at rebell1952 at Hotmail, as can anyone who reads these posts and is interested in persuing this further.
For me this dogma is necessary for us to know the proper protocol of the Godhead. For example in our prayer, we speak to the father not to the Son but thru the Son. When the Father answers our prayer he sends the Holy Ghost. They all have different function but they are one in purpose.
First let us look at the word "dogma," as this word is bantered around like it has some special attribute of truthfulness. Merriam Webster Dictionary defines dogma thusly: "1a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds." The qualifying phrase here is "without adequate grounds." Dogmas are opinions, not facts! I can think of no passage that says what you do in your post. Nowhere, is there a passage that says that Holy Spirit is or has personality. In fact, when Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit, he used the word "it" in designating said spirit, not "he" as is often the translation. Your last line, "They all have different function but they are one in purpose," is definitely correct, though. The qualifying phrase here is "they are one in purpose." Purpose, not entity. Jesus said, "I and my father are one." The Jews of his time and most Christians today took that to mean he was saying that he and the father were one and the same being (entity). If this is so, then how do we understand Jesus' saying that he prays that we (his disciples) are one with the father "in the same way" as he and the father are one? This would, if the correct understanding of Jesus' claim to be one with the father meant that he was the self-same entity, require that we be God.
As I said before, Jesus told the Pharisees, "You make God's law of no effect by your traditions." The same must be said of the "Christian" church today. Simply because people have held a certain interpretation for centuries, does not thereby make it true. For centuries men thought the universe revolved aroung the earth, for centuries men believed the earth to be flat, for centuries men thought it impossible to fly, the list goes on and on and on. Until you comprehend that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church and led by Satan, nothing I say will make any difference. I would suggest you read and meditate upon 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, paying close attention to verses 3, 4 and 10 through 12.
As I said before, Jesus told the Pharisees, "You make God's law of no effect by your traditions." The same must be said of the "Christian" church today. Simply because people have held a certain interpretation for centuries, does not thereby make it true. For centuries men thought the universe revolved aroung the earth, for centuries men believed the earth to be flat, for centuries men thought it impossible to fly, the list goes on and on and on. Until you comprehend that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church and led by Satan, nothing I say will make any difference. I would suggest you read and meditate upon 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, paying close attention to verses 3, 4 and 10 through 12.
Rebel - Yes - God is One and only One omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, supernatural monistic spirit, with no beginning or end. He cannot be partitioned. There can be no straddling of the fence - total monotheism or pseudo-monotheism. It is arrogant to try to speculate on God's "organizational structure" - He needs none - The mystery of his power and will cannot be reduced. The kingdom of God is in your heart Christ says, but mere humans cannot access the glory and righteousness of the kingdom. Christ did after His baptism. This are not 2 Gods, but 1 God indwelling in Jesus Christ for the obvious reasons of revelation and salvation. There is no need for a separate Holy Ghost - God is omnipresent - his spirit touches us directly - he does not need a separate messenger. There is but ONE GOD AND GOD ALONE - this biblical truth dwarfs all other scriptures that some have interpreted as pseudo-monotheistic. Son and Father are not as we know them to be. It allows our feeble mortal minds to attempt to understand the connection to God - He is Abba Father to all of us - God's "children" in that he created every one of us. This is my humble belief. The mystery excites and astounds me every day!
P.S. - You mentioned a couple of non-trinitarian sects. See what you think of Oneness as proposed by some of the Pentecostals.
P.S. - You mentioned a couple of non-trinitarian sects. See what you think of Oneness as proposed by some of the Pentecostals.
FYI - My handle rebell1952 is merely my initials, last name and birth year. If you like my name is Richard.
I looked at the "Oneness" doctrine and it is as flawed as Trinity. The thing that everyone misses is that it is not God but the Word that becomes flesh and while the Word was God, God cut this part of himself off (sanctified) and caused it to become flesh - Jesus (properly Yeshua [Joshua]). There is virtually no resemblance to what passes for Christianity today and what the Apostles taught. Today's Christianity is not of God or Christ, period! Unfortunately, this leads to the inevitable conclusion that Christianity, like all religions, is merely man's feable attempt to explain that which he does not understand. Humans seem incapable as a whole to divorce themselves from the reality that all living things cease and the instinct to survive. Because, I, as a reasoning organism, also have a build-in survival instinct, I cannot see that the instinct is not the reality. Of course if I could make the distinction, then the survival instinct wouldn't work. I, personally, cannot imagine myself as not existing, yet I consciously know that I will cease to exist eventually, this leads the mind to attempt to create a scenario in which I do not cease to exist, i.e. religion. This is the reason the prophecies of all religions ultimately fail. Now in an infinite universe I may be incorrect, because of infinite possibility, God and a divine purpose might exist, but there is zero evidence of this. Of course, should Jesus return as predicted in the Revelation some time in the extremely near future (as any realistic interpretation of Daniel and Revelation make it certain that the return must be before the generation that saw the re-establishment of Israel passes), I will be proven incorrect. I certainly do not advocate that people stop believing in God, whatever their concept be, whatever floats your boat. But for me, having studied not just Christianity, but all major religions for more than 50 years, with a true desire to know God, in whatever form he may exist, it is no longer possible to continue the farce. While there have been instances in my life that are nearly impossible for me to explain as anything but supernatural, these instances were not attributable to any one religious concept. Further, the existance of an omnicient, and infallible God, makes everything that follows set in concrete, without any possibility of being changed. This means that "free will" is an illusion, everything must be as God foreknew it would be. Therefore, everyone believes and does exactly what they absolutely had to do, and for better or worse, you, I and everybody else is (was and will be) exactly where they must be. Therefore, I chose to believe that there is free will and that I am the master of my destiny. The only thing that believing in some supernatural deity has gotten me is terrible heatache and frustration.
I looked at the "Oneness" doctrine and it is as flawed as Trinity. The thing that everyone misses is that it is not God but the Word that becomes flesh and while the Word was God, God cut this part of himself off (sanctified) and caused it to become flesh - Jesus (properly Yeshua [Joshua]). There is virtually no resemblance to what passes for Christianity today and what the Apostles taught. Today's Christianity is not of God or Christ, period! Unfortunately, this leads to the inevitable conclusion that Christianity, like all religions, is merely man's feable attempt to explain that which he does not understand. Humans seem incapable as a whole to divorce themselves from the reality that all living things cease and the instinct to survive. Because, I, as a reasoning organism, also have a build-in survival instinct, I cannot see that the instinct is not the reality. Of course if I could make the distinction, then the survival instinct wouldn't work. I, personally, cannot imagine myself as not existing, yet I consciously know that I will cease to exist eventually, this leads the mind to attempt to create a scenario in which I do not cease to exist, i.e. religion. This is the reason the prophecies of all religions ultimately fail. Now in an infinite universe I may be incorrect, because of infinite possibility, God and a divine purpose might exist, but there is zero evidence of this. Of course, should Jesus return as predicted in the Revelation some time in the extremely near future (as any realistic interpretation of Daniel and Revelation make it certain that the return must be before the generation that saw the re-establishment of Israel passes), I will be proven incorrect. I certainly do not advocate that people stop believing in God, whatever their concept be, whatever floats your boat. But for me, having studied not just Christianity, but all major religions for more than 50 years, with a true desire to know God, in whatever form he may exist, it is no longer possible to continue the farce. While there have been instances in my life that are nearly impossible for me to explain as anything but supernatural, these instances were not attributable to any one religious concept. Further, the existance of an omnicient, and infallible God, makes everything that follows set in concrete, without any possibility of being changed. This means that "free will" is an illusion, everything must be as God foreknew it would be. Therefore, everyone believes and does exactly what they absolutely had to do, and for better or worse, you, I and everybody else is (was and will be) exactly where they must be. Therefore, I chose to believe that there is free will and that I am the master of my destiny. The only thing that believing in some supernatural deity has gotten me is terrible heatache and frustration.
Hey Richard - I don't believe in the dogma of Oneness - just see the theological alternative in a broad sense. Free will is essential - I believe that the Creator is a perfect spiritual essence, but that does not have to mean everything is set in stone. God is immutable, and changes his will many times biblicly. I agree on your concept of the Word (I think) - most Christians see the Word as Christ, but i see it as intentionality, not unlike the spiritual heart of all of us,within the world of course. One may say that time had a beginning at the big bang (after the Word), in the sense that earlier times simply would not be defined. It should be emphasized that a beginning is something that has to be imposed by some being outside the universe; there is no physical necessity for a beginning. Kudos on your worldly spiritual knowledge - an open mind allows us to ponder the existential/spiritual issues, and I get a kick out of it. I agree that most "Christianity" is distorted. I can better identify myself as a "reformed Jew" with no particular religious bent, in my attempt at discipleship and pondering His Kingdom message. This obviously leads to frustration, but i have found that resultant anger, headache and disillusion muddy the water, leading me to construct the straw man. and search desperately for the meaning of life, as opposed to letting Him deal with the cosmos and my spirit. I too see no answers in religion, but I also view "enlightenment" as an illusion that fails to escape the world, as those efforts are always limited by their teacher's being-in-the-world reality. I pray for serenity in the quest we all share. Rick
Rick, are you familiar with George Orwell's book 1984? If so, in the book he talks about a mental apparatus whereby people are able to cope in a world with a double standard as with Communism. He calls it double think and it is a method whereby a person holds two oppoing ideas simultaneously and considers both true. This is what people do with religion, especially Christianity, but the Jews were no better. If we hold as a premise that God is both omnicient and infalible, then everything must be set in stone. This God knows absolutely every detail of everything that will be or happen throughout time (that is, the existence of this space-time continuum) before any of it is set in motion. Because he is infalible, nothing can be different in any way from the way he knew it to be before it happened. Therefore, even God is bound by what he foreknew. You can say anything you like to try to get around this inescapable logic (and God gave us logic so we could understand, not merely to confuse us), but that is the essence of double think. Another case in point, this same God is also immutable, yet the Old Testament says that God created man, that man was not perfect (or would become that way after the forbidden fruit incedent), now God must have known what man was going to be like, and even though he is immutable, the O.T. says that he repented (that's the word in Hebrew) of making man and proceeds to destroy him. Now there may be possible scenarios that allow for this, as God thought of all this stuff before he started (though that would still be a situation wherein even God is bound by what he foreknew), but these are merely imaginary scenarios, like tachyons. Tachyons are theoretical particles, based on imaginary mathmatics and if they could exist they would have to both travel faster than light and backwards in time. Granted, man may well not know enough about physics to say of a certainty that Einstein's constancy of the speed of light and that nothing can travel faster than light (in fact Einstein himself thought he may well have been in error) is an absolute. Still, God cannot be as he is described in the Bible, because he would constitue a paradox and by the very definition a paradox is not quantifiable, it allows for change and the outcome and consequences are uncertain. If God is capable of changing his will at any time, then there can be no certainty of salvation, because God could change his mind about it. No, my friend, human concepts of God, as those contained in the Bible and other religious books, are not plausible in the long run, too many contradictions creep in. And say what you will about man's understanding not comparing with God's, but if we are to be a friend and equal of God as Jesus the Christ claimed, then we must have the capacity to understand even as he understands or we could be no more equals than I am to an amoeba. Another thought to ponder, why does there have to be a meaning of life? Humans are the only creatures on this planet that seem to think there must be a meaning of life, the rest of the animals simply live and die and in the mean time go about their business of surviving, there is no meaning, they're just there. I still believe that it all comes down to the inability to separate the survival instinct and the comprehention that we will cease to be at some point. As for living forever, I really don't think I'd want to as I'd get desparately bored after a few millenia.
QUOTE (rebell1952 @ May 6 2010, 02:49 AM) 
Why is it necessary to believe the Trinity dogma? I am fully aware of the Biblical references used to support this idea, so I'm not interested in going through those. What I am interested in is, why this is an immutable central pillar of post 4th century belief and what could the consequences be for not accepting this precept?
As I said, I have heard all the Biblical justifications for this belief, but no one seems to be able to explain why it's necessary to accept it. What possible difference can it make how one understands the relationship between the Father, his son and the Holy Spirit?
As I said, I have heard all the Biblical justifications for this belief, but no one seems to be able to explain why it's necessary to accept it. What possible difference can it make how one understands the relationship between the Father, his son and the Holy Spirit?
Here are a few random thoughts for you:
-- 70+ verses teach Jesus is God, is equal to Father God, is the Creator, etc.
-- Jesus said, "... if you do not believe that I AM (God), you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)
-- 10+ verses point to the Holy Spirit being God.
-- Jesus promised "another of the same kind" (i.e. Holy Spirit) as He is would replace Him.
-- Perhaps we need to decide if these verses are authentic, or additions.
-- Jesus basically always taught in parables, only hinted at His deity, etc. for a reason.
-- Jesus did not preach Trinity to the multitudes (re: last point).
-- Jesus depended totally on Father God and on the Holy Spirit.
Hidden in Scripture or not, it takes a special revelation to believe in the Trinity.
But, some believe simply because they are born into it.
WHY is it important to believe in the Trinity?
-- It is revealed in Scripture.
-- It is revealed to be truth by the Holy Spirit.
I honestly thought that I'd stopped monitoring this thread, but it appears not. Anyway, my question, "Why is it necessary to believe the Trinity Dogma?" was actually rhetorical. But as to your response, there are not any verses what-so-ever that teach that Jesus is God and there is a vast ocean of difference between being equal to a thing and being that thing. For every New Testament verse that says Jesus (actually Yeshua [Joshua] they can't even get the name right, why trust them on any other issue?) is equal to God the Father, there is at least one verse that says we are eqaual to and have every gift, honor, and glory that Jesus has!!! Ergo, we are equal to and by that very flawed reasoning we must also be God the Father! Your quote of John 8:24 is misapplied when you include "(God)" after "I am." If anything can be put in parenthesis there it whould be "Messiah," not God. Those 10+ verses you say "point" to the Holy Spirit being God do no more than that, "point" to, but they "point" to this ONLY because theologians say so and some of those verses have been purposely mistranslated to give that impression, i.e. translating the Greek word "autos" as "he" instead of "it" as is the true meaning of the word. It takes a special kind of stupidity, not revelation, to believe the Satanic lie of "Trinity." But nothing I say will convince you of the truth, even when it is clearly proven in black and white from "Scripture" because all those who follow man's traditions are incapable of knowing the truth as the truth is spiritually discerned and the Spirit never speaks blaspheme.
I suggest you study and meditate upon 2 Thess. 2, paying close attention to verses 3 and 4 (here you see the origin of Trinity by Satan) and especially verses 9 - 12, as these are the people who believe and propagate "Trinity!"
You might as well be a Muslim if you stand on an idiotic statement like, "God's precious Scriptures are of no value to those who don't believe them!" Islam teaches simply that it is clear that it is only a foolish and depraved person who does not believe every utterence from the mouth of God - Mohammed being that mouth.
But, you are free to believe any nonsense you choose, in the end it won't really matter anyway, as God is not mocked, His will, will win out, regardless of whether you comprehend the truth or not. But, for me, this is exactly the hard headed and hard hearted perseverence of stupidity in the face of truth that drives me to be, at best, an agnostic. Christianity today has virtually no resemblance to the Way of Christ as taught by Paul the Apostle! And if God couldn't even keep His Church alive...
I suggest you study and meditate upon 2 Thess. 2, paying close attention to verses 3 and 4 (here you see the origin of Trinity by Satan) and especially verses 9 - 12, as these are the people who believe and propagate "Trinity!"
You might as well be a Muslim if you stand on an idiotic statement like, "God's precious Scriptures are of no value to those who don't believe them!" Islam teaches simply that it is clear that it is only a foolish and depraved person who does not believe every utterence from the mouth of God - Mohammed being that mouth.
But, you are free to believe any nonsense you choose, in the end it won't really matter anyway, as God is not mocked, His will, will win out, regardless of whether you comprehend the truth or not. But, for me, this is exactly the hard headed and hard hearted perseverence of stupidity in the face of truth that drives me to be, at best, an agnostic. Christianity today has virtually no resemblance to the Way of Christ as taught by Paul the Apostle! And if God couldn't even keep His Church alive...
1952 Muslims sitting on a wall ... 'tis a pity to see 'em all fall.
Your problem is no God's Spirit to teach you anything.
All you have are a bunch of black words on white paper.
"Gabriel" wasn't given THE TEST in 1 John 4:1-3, so it wasn't given the chance to fail the test for false spirits.
Too bad Mo and the boys didn't know their Scriptures, or they might have tested it.
And "it", boys and girls, was none other than Satan itself, or one of it's demons.
P.S. There were/are MANY warnings in the NT about the coming of false angels, prophets, etc.
The false angel "Moroni" came and deceived Joseph Smith, and voila, we have Mormonism.
Gee, what fun!
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