I know the medium of text makes talking about emotions and stuff a little hard, but I'll give it a shot.

I'm a 36-year old male. I grew up a practicing Catholic, but did not understand/hear the gospel until I was 18. I was a freshman in college, and did the usual stuff - a small group bible study, InterVarsity fellowship, church, prayer groups, you name it. All my friends were Christians. I was totally immersed in it from day to day.

When I was 21, give or take, I joined the Army. This was my first taste of the "real world", my first encounter with folks who had dismissed Christianity in full. I returned to college after basic & advanced training (reserves) bemused and quite a bit more cynical. I likely felt guilty about having doubts and concerns. I know this was the point at which I started getting fed up with such trite things as "let go and let God!".

Fast-forward through twelve years of marriage and three children. My wife takes the kids to church regularly and goes to bible studies and prays with them and such. I do my best as a father to share Jesus' words as well as act them out. I pray with them and explain what it all means. However, I can't stand going to church. A lot of the time, I can't stand Christians. I don't like the lingo, I don't learn anything from someone standing up and talking at me. I need to discuss, ask questions. I've tried small-group bible studies, but they frustrate me with lingo+all-is-good-if-you-let-God. I'm a cynical, doubting, blunt individual. But I still believe.

I was reading and reflecting about WHY I feel these kinds of things. I said a few weeks ago to my wife that I wasn't certain of anything except that I know Jesus died on the cross for my sins. I meant the "anything", too. The bible as the word of God and being infallible, creation versus evolution, baptism, you name it. Some of those things are what I would call "issues", and may only mean things to denominationalists.

Digging more, I think that the reason why I doubt so much stuff is because I don't trust God. And I don't trust God because I don't love God. I'm thankful for salvation, and I try to obey with the knowledge that I'm covered in grace. I try to pray not for what I want, but for what God's will is - because I do trust that he knows better than I about anything. But, man, I don't believe that he loves me as an individual person and that he is pursuing me for anything. And vice-versa - I don't think I love him, either. My lack of love comes from my frustration with the world and all the bad things in it. I guess I think that since he's omnipotent and omniscient, he ought to do something about all the evil people hurting innocents and each other. Even if he's not causing it, it's kind of apathetic not to stop it. Of course, my head tells me that God knows what he's doing and it's necessary, but I sure don't believe that in my heart. It sticks in my craw and paralyzes my faith.

So where do I go from here?

Hi DMH! It's a very good question, "Where do I go from her?" A lot depends on where you want to go.

Let's start by separating churches from God...since most of them have done that already. Your relationship with God has nothing to do with church attendance or doctrines. Most churches now are big businesses, making money by serving religion in popular, brightly colored packages.

Where it gets difficult to discuss, for me, is where you say you don't believe in the Bible as God's Word, but you do believe Jesus died for your sins. The difficulty arises for me, because the only way we ever knew of Jesus was through the Bible. The only way we knew of sin was through the Bible. The only way we knew a sacrifice was necessary to pay for sin was through the Bible. And, the only way we knew Jesus was the Christ, God's son, foretold in prophecy and dying for our sin, was through the Bible. The fact is, if we don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, then Jesus is nothing but a fictional character from an old piece of literature. I'm not saying you're wrong to believe in Jesus...just the opposite. You're wrong not to believe in the Bible, just because you've heard others doubt it, or scientists claim they know we "evolved." If you'd like some scientific basis for believing the Bible, without all the platitudes, let me recommend this book: A Ready Defense.

Now, if you get to the point that you feel you do believe in the Bible, but have concerns about seeming contradictions and difficulties understanding, I'd love to help you. I've been studying it since 1989, have a BA and 18 years advising people and helping them in this very area. I have yet to see a "contradiction" in the Bible. After thousands of people have tried for centuries, no one has ever found a factual error in the Bible, though there are many things that remain unproven. The same can't be said of any other ancient document, by the way.

Anyway, I'd love to continue our discussion in as blunt a manner as you'd like. I like blunt...it leaves no room for misunderstanding. If you don't mind my being blunt, how much have you read the Bible? I know I had a lot more doubts when I was getting most of my information second-hand. What are the verses that give you trouble? None of that pop-Christian junk you have trouble with is actually in the Bible. Anyway, let me know how I can be of specific help, and I'll be happy to go anywhere you'd like.

Hi, Glen. Thanks for the response.

I phrased at least one part of my post poorly - I did not mean to say that I didn't believe the Bible was God's word, I meant to say that I wasn't absolutely positive it is infallible. I believe He guided it, shaped it, inspired it, ensured nothing was left out or change (proof in the Dead Sea scrolls, for example), I'm just not 100% positive it's perfect. I choose to act like it is, and study it and memorize passages. I not much of an absolutist, so it's hard for me to declare something as one hundred percent factual. Hope that explains it a little.

Tangent: I chuckled because you referred to Ready Defense, and I was racking my brain to remember where I read evidence provided by secular sources that Jesus-as-miracle-worker lived and taught at the right time. I'm pretty sure that was Josh McDowell, but maybe in another book. In any event, there are multiple sources that prove Jesus was real and not fictional, right?

My personal issues are more with the persona of God himself, and with not loving Him. I will readily admit that it's strange for me to believe in salvation and yet not quite believe in the book. I don't know how to deal with that - I've struggled with it forever. I can take the intangible on faith, but something so concrete is hard for me to believe in? Regardless of all the evidence supporting various parts of the Bible, aren't there still whole swaths that you have to take on faith as being true? Is your opinion that I need to believe in the Bible first, and then as I study it I'll better trust him, and maybe love him (and believe in him loving me?)?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Belief, at least, in the accuracy of the Bible helps in belief in Christ. I wouldn't want to say necessary, but it would be a disconnect that would have to be reconciled at some point. I think the problem most have with the Bible being the infallible Word of God is that we see contradictions between various translations and wide varieties of interpretation, all claiming to be based on the infallible word of God. Only the original books of the Bible were infallable...then the copying and translating happened.

First of all, there is belief in the perfect, eternal God who created us. Then, the belief that such a God was capable of revealing Himself perfectly, through the writings of His servants. If you believe in such a God, it isn't a real stretch that the Bible is His Word, perfect in the original version. Now, all we have are translations in various degrees of perfection. Having translated a good bit of the New testament from the original Greek, I can tell you our language does a weak job of relating the depth there. Still, what our Bible does say is an pretty darn accurate representation...99% +. For me, there is no part of the Bible I don't believe, but still some I don't understand.

What concerns me more is your statement that you believe in, but don't love, God. I can see where that may be possible if there were some misunderstanding of Him. For the most part, the Bible is pretty clear Love is a strong indicator of being in Christ. I've been angry at him, me not knowing why certain things happen and how they could fit in His kingdom, but kids are angry at their father and still love him. So, maybe I'm misunderstanding you about this. Could you elaborate?

Memphis,

let me start by saying that I really like Glenn's responses to our posts. I am have never been a professional in the ministry, and hold no credentials. I like this Web based Church connection and read the posts often. I usually want to say something but don't feel qualified to respond. It does give me a push to dig deeper and seek answers for myself.

I am a father of 4 children and divorced. I was in the military and lost sight of God for a long time during my tour,and afterwards. About 2 years ago I started renewing my faith and questioning my beliefs.

In response to some of your questions, I have found for myself:
I don't think I can ever understand God. He is so far beyond my comprehension.
How do you get your mind around the I Am, Eternal being? I think of myself as a speck in relation to everything to in Gods realm, but the Bible tells me I am important to him. The Bible tells me he loves me and gives a great story to prove it.

From what I think about the world I can see that some people cause their own suffering but many good people do not. I am sinful, all of us are as a result of Adam and Eve's actions.

I know from the Bible that God personally knows what suffering feels like. I try to think about how it would feel to freely give up one of my sons to suffer for a bunch of people who are evil so that they MIGHT have a chance to redeem themselves
knowing that they will probably IGNORE the opportunity. Could you do what God did through Jesus? I don't think I am able too. I hope I am never tested like Abraham.

I think that if God stopped all the evil in the world none of us would be here. I sometimes see the evil in myself and it scares me. It is there, and only Jesus gives me a chance for forgiveness. I love God for His sacrifice, and try to focus on that when things get bleak.

Know that I sometimes lose sight of what I have just said. I pray that you and I can keep our focus, and our faith.

Don't know if any of this helps. I felt compelled to say something. Please excuse any spelling errors, I havent figured out how to enable spell check yet.

Jose, I can see from your post you have a wisdom that goes beyond Biblical schooling and ministry credentials. When you say, "I usually want to say something but don't feel qualified to respond," I feel I need to tell you you are as qualified as I am. There is no training superior to yours, a life in Christ. The Bible says you have the mind of Christ. Please post replies and open topics whenever you want to say something.

Anyone reading this, please know, though you may need a credential to speak in most churches, this web-church and these forums are for you to express the gifts God has given you. The only credential you need is to be in relationship with God. The more different perspectives we hear, the stronger we all become.

You know how being married isn't necessarily a feeling of always being "in love"? There are times when I look at my wife and am consumed with love for her. I couldn't define it if you asked me what it was, at those moments I just know that it's true. Other times, as in all marriages, the flame is just an ember and we slog on. I love her, it's just dormant. We drive on knowing that it's a commitment that we made and we'll get through anything. Sooner or later, that ember gets fanned again and we understand why we keep driving on.

Love is an emotion, isn't it? Sure, it's a verb too, and we have to follow the example of Jesus not to do good works, but to show the evidence of God's love. That part isn't even a problem - loving a complete stranger is easier for me than loving God. I can obey, I can follow, I can study, I can fear, I can respect. But love? I mean, like I loved my earthly father, or like my son loves me? I can't grasp that. How do I learn that?



I completely agree with this. What I long for is the acceptance of this, and the ability to love him in the non-comprehension, I guess. Sometimes I can barely grasp what it would be like to meet Jesus face-to-face, and that ALMOST gives me the surety that I would love him, but... I'm not going to meet him til I die. I won't meet God til I die. My fear is that I won't ever be able to "love" God while I live, because of my doubts and cynicism and needing to "touch the scars" like Thomas did, you know?

Is belief enough? Is the human, emotional definition of love something that can't be applied to God? Do you guys actually think about God and FEEL love?

It's interesting you use marriage as an analogy for love, because that's exactly the one God uses in His Word to represent the relationship He has with us. We're referred to as His bride. A man is to love his wife as his own body. We are the body of Christ. A man is to sacrifice himself for his wife, as Christ did for us. All of this in the Bible. I've often looked at my wedding ring and, even as I think of it now, I'm in awe at what it represents. Someone loves me...me, enough to give her whole life to me. I think how unworthy I am, how blessed I am...and I'm reminded that she isn't the only one.

For me and for you, the Maker of the universe, the most powerful Being in all of eternity, loves each of us so much that He put down his God-ness, became human, let humans kill Him and raised Himself back to life...all so we, who He died for, would have a way to live in His love forever, even though we don't deserve it. And then He lets us choose to respond to this act of love, or not. There is no greater love story. For me, I'm even more awestruck at His act than my wife's, but my response to Him is the same...I love Him.

Maybe years ago I had doubts too big to allow me to wholeheartedly love God. Over the years, though, after seeing how He carried me through tragedy and sickness and failures, I find myself breaking out many times a day with a full-throated, "I love you, God." Just as with my wife, over the years, my love has grown for God. Just as with any relationship, I do go through times I don't feel it as much or express it as much, but something always brings me back to that love.

For you, it may be some of the things you've seen church people do or say that have thrown you off in your understanding of God, but He is intimately involved in your life. I don't believe it a coincidence that you landed on this site started by someone who is so overwhelmingly in love with God. Maybe He wanted you to know it isn't church attendance or catchy phrases or professional preachers or worship teams that Christianity is all about. Maybe He wanted you to know Christianity is a living relationship with a loving God. Maybe He led you here so you would see how much He loves you and how intimately He is interested in you. As hard as it is to fathom that Someone such as God would love us, with all our faults, He does...that's the whole story of the Bible.

What is it from the Bible you find hard to believe?

Hi DMH! When you started this topic, you ended your fist post with, "Where do I go from here?" We were having a good conversation and then, no reply from you. Are you still reading? If so, what is it about God loving you (my last post) that stopped your responses? Read this quote from your first post:
"I need to discuss, ask questions. I've tried small-group bible studies, but they frustrate me with lingo+all-is-good-if-you-let-God. I'm a cynical, doubting, blunt individual. But I still believe."

I've invited you to ask questions...to go ahead and be be cynical, doubting and blunt. So, what are your questions? I want to help in any way I can. If you have a problem believing God loves you and is intimately involved in your life, let's have a discussion about that? I'm ready when you are. If there is something keeping you from continuing the discussion, please consider it and pray about it, because this is probably the same thing keeping you from openly loving God and receiving the full measure of His love.

Hi DMH : )

Do I feel love when I consider God -- I do,, very real and deeply,
but interestingly enough just this morning i was considering the biological differences,
which are very real,
between men and women in the are of emotions..
I was wondering how deeply do men in general feel as opposed to the average female.

I must say your post grieves me to know that everyone doesn't ''feel'' it,
but it makes me aware that the FEELING of deep and
passionate love that I experience for and with God is truly a gift.
I do inquire and I do like to know, but God doesn't always elect to reveal
and has many times told me to simply believe, because I will flog an issue
till there isn't anything left of it and still not know absolutely where I stand.

I find your willingness to be obedient interesting, that you know you fear,
I'd be more apt for myself to question if I fear God, as I don't feel it, but
by faith I accept that I do and I walk on. I have been in this world long
enough to be skeptical about everything, but I've also learned not to let
that impede my faith in God. I'd have to agree that if you don't ''get'' God's
Love for you that you would have difficulty trusting Him, you say that you
believe that He knows best, how do you know that?
Have you ever considered your personal image of the way God is?
I mean if you aren't so sure about the Bible being perfect, where are you
getting your ideas of God's Character?
Because it's the scriptures that testify to what TRUE LOVE IS and demonstrate it.

I'd say that the way I internalize God's love
is not so much that I feel Him loving me as I feel myself loving, adoring and just
being generally mind blown by how WONDERFUL HE IS TO ME personally.
And so by feeling love for Him I take it on faith that He to loves me and the knowledge
that my love for Him compared to His love for me is so minute.

I'm sorry to hear that your frustrated with, for the lack of a better term, the Christian-eeze..
I can't say that I blame you, because stock answers are just that impersonal and they fail
to address the human experience.
I must ask do you question God's Love for you,
your love for him or both?
I want to understand you correctly...
In reading what you wrote I'm not sure what it is your searching for,
but I can say some people do feel the love between themselves and The Lord,
though that's not what makes it real, but it does make it touchable, tangible..

I see that you are faithful to the path that you've chosen, but that it's not satisfying,
that you desire more. Intimacy is always a pre-requisite of a fulfilling relationship.
The question is how? Well trust is where it will spring from..
God does love you, begin to take that on faith and ask Him WHAT IS LOVE LORD?
And allow Him the opportunity to be intimate with you, where you just allow things
to flow and not be in control of where it goes or how it begins, like in a conversation
with someone you care for and trust. Ask God to show you what's missing and let
Him teach you how to trust and love. It's not something that you can learn from a book
or a question and answer session, it's being yourself before God and letting Him show you
and express to you in the small things that HE DOES LOVE AND CARE FOR YOU PERSONALLY..
Possibly you'd benefit for giving thanks, asking to see His Hand in your life in the other wise
mundane day to day -- I know that the more I give thanks for, THE MORE I SEE GOD LOVING ON ME,
in those little details that most people would miss..

He really does love you, and I pray that you will not go on missing out on that experience..

prayerfully
dani